What you’ll hear in this episode:

• What zebra mussels are and why the current approach to getting rid of zebra mussels is ineffective
• How cancer research can help reshape the way invasive species are combatted
• Why HQO partnered with the ACC Biosciences Incubator

Zebra Mussels are an invasive species that Central Texans are all too familiar with. They wreak havoc on our waterways and seem impossible to get rid of. They were even the culprit behind Austin’s now-infamous 2018 boil water notice! The problem, according to John Higley, founder and CEO of Environmental Quality Operations (EQO), is that we aren’t treating Zebra Mussels like the cancer that they are. 

Before founding HQO, Higley worked in biopharmaceutical research for over ten years, specifically researching cures for cancer. When trying to kill cancer, Higley explains to host Dan Dillard, scientists just want to kill the cancer cells and nothing else. That’s the same approach he’s taking to Zebra Mussels. Typically, when a body of water is treated for Zebra Mussels harsh chemicals are used that kill anything and everything in the environment. This upsets the natural ecosystem of the water and kills non-invasive species as well. To combat this, HQO is developing microalgae specifically designed to kill Zebra Mussels and nothing else, leaving the rest of the ecosystem untouched. 

Higley worked to develop his company with the Austin Community College Bioscience Incubator. 

“There is no way I could’ve built this business without ACC’s program,” he tells Dillard. “There’s nothing like it else in the country. I don’t know how you would go from an idea to a biotech company without the services that they provide.”

Listen to the third episode of Science in the Mall, Y’all tp hear more about Higley and HQO’s work to combat invasive species in Central Texas and how he works with ACC students to help them find job placement opportunities. If you like what you hear, leave us a review and share it with a friend!

Science In the Mall, Y’all is a founding_media podcast created in partnership with the ACC Bioscience Incubator. 

Host: Dan Dillard, founding_media

Guest: John Higley, Environmental Quality Operations

My joke is that I already cured cancer so I wanted to try something hard.

Transcript:

this is a founding media podcast produced at Austin community college district welcome to science in the mall y’all I’m your host Dan Dillard. if you live in Austin you probably heard of zebra mussels the invasive species are wreaking havoc on central Texas waterways John Hinckley CEO of EQ O. has a vision of how to solve this problem he like many off nights has played in bands worked in the tech industry and now has a start up EQAO his latest project is working to protect water resources to early detection monitoring mitigation and eventually the eradication of invasive mussels let’s hear more about him and how he and his team are looking to tackle this new and expanding problem first was the John thanks for coming on the show things are happening looking forward to just chatting and getting to know you and your work a little bit more  I’m really fascinated by first of all the work that you’re doing but let’s get into that in a little bit short I won’t learn more about you and you know where your you know your upbringing what would cause yeah this path and you know what drives you yeah absolutely  so emerging from Newport Rhode Island  but I mostly grew up in the Dallas area  came down to you T. for undergraduate never really left I when I first got here I kind of was going to either go the medical route going to med school or I was going to be a lit major because I really like philosophy so then I found biology and realized it was the actual study of life all the answers they want from philosophy actually contained in a science and I’m naturally good at that kind of stuff yeah so it was a good fit so you can research scientist  of course all my lofty idealistic goals I went directly into cancer research and that’s rated for about fifteen years well  the number of various companies biotech companies eventually landing at a place called molecular templates which was now it’s much larger company here  when I was there was just me and the CEO and one other person for a bit  so you want it you were already use the entrepreneurs and world yeah yeah how are you went through that once I mean I wasn’t at the C. suite there is kind of broad and early as a size eight you know  scientist and really dug that whole thing but the end of that account was like I have done this why did the I did the  you know going from  preclinical up to a clinical and creating a bio pharmaceutical drugs for cancer care and  so then I was kind of figure out what I want to do next while I was there I had this idea to do this your muscle research moving into later but  that’s where I kind of got the idea and kind of wanted to start applying those technologies that we develop in the world of oncology and start utilizing them for helping the environment and  so my joke is usually that you know where to cure cancer so I want to try something hard  but  yeah and so kind of my you know who I am I you know mostly grew up in Dallas area been Austin for almost twenty years now hello  and we’ll see what else  you got four kids  they’re great  holds one seventeen fourteen year old an eight year old and a four year old keep your hands full yep keeping in my toes he’s playing bands obviously this is Austin it used to be everybody would ask like  what do you do only play I’m in a band so what do you do for a living you know I work at dell now it seems it’s  what do you do I I’m in a bad okay what do you really do I have to start up okay what do you do for money actually get a from AI start ups that is absolutely what do you eat going back to even before you decided to go into eggs come wondered wondered what Tom your passion what drove you as a kid were you always interested in science or was it just college I was  intruders as an event that happened yeah I was I was kind actually had good aptitude for it kind of came easily but I’m in the office and fight me as fifth grade and some honors class than one’s creative things really creative stuff and  some friends of mine the other is like predicting for the friends what do you think this person is going to be the right answer to mine was like Adam that I would be a scientist and I was heartbroken I never know you’re so wrong she was right  but not there wasn’t some they really I want to do kind of more I’m originally I was kind of a more drawn to literature and music and things like that  I was just kind of always good at the math and science stuff just naturally and  then I you know by now it really finding biology like I didn’t really love biology when I was in high school it was when I was an undergrad there was just something they said that just kind of clicked on my  existential philosophy dork brain and it’s like oh that’s a much more interesting than I kind of fell into this  yes I wasn’t in that was hearing entrepreneurship stuff I mean a lot of that comes from you know playing in bands and things like that especially like playing a lot of punk and indie bands and there’s always this kind of DIY attitude you know just screw the record companies make around saying you know it’s not about getting rich about making something interesting that nobody else has done before and so really this is kind of a culmination of the philosophical an activist ideals and  the D. I. Y. punk rock start up spirit you know I’m plying that to this and the greater things on you know we’re what we do is not normal right it’s kind of it’s not somebody else’s done before and it’s pretty  it’s it takes some creativity analytics and scientific know how such kind of a blend of everything I’ve kind of always wanted to do and weird way make big positive change into it no creative way that not other people could look at it and do the same way one now I find it really fast and and why I do what I do as far as interviews and a journalism and all the things is because I just find it fascinating the journey that people take for the journey this is kind of like unfolds in front of them and writers as as a kid you think you’re gonna do one thing and then you end up at thing like Justin falls for units so cool  in fulls for yet and you know none of us is is  it’s an old one things like him right now I talked to people time that we were going down this path and all of a sudden you know they changed and we started doing this and it could be completely polar opposites ran with thank you know  that engineering became a scientist known us for there’s all kinds of things that life can just a folder for you so I just think it’s really cool especially when you’re ushered about several things and they all kind of culminated yeah one thing some of that special kind Merrick blend of you know Comair’s at something I deal with but anyway  one of the things that I think is fascinated about your work now is  you know I think everybody in Austin understand zebra mussels after last year I wanna deal stinky water and all that kind of stuff so I really want to understand you know  more about the zebra mussel issue to begin with and then how you decide to tackle that and and and how you’ve you know the work that you do now so why don’t you restart by just talking to the public about you know why this is a problem in sure yes as zebra mussels are  they’re dry synods  so trace any as a genus that I won’t get too in depth but basically they look like muscles like a little itty bitty version of the you know the prince and the P. I. muscles in my order someone that they look like little itty bitty versions of that and  they’re not though they’re actually called a false muscle and they’re really native only to the black and Caspian seas and Russia no one showed up in the Great Lakes as invasive species in the eighties the Great Lakes are a perfect breeding ground for invasive species just because I won’t get too into the geology in the college of the Great Lakes but it’s a it’s a it’s a very sensitive area so they showed up in the eighties they didn’t show up in Texas until two thousand nine was the first infestation and I was up at lake Texoma on the Oklahoma border and it’s kind of just spread throughout and you know one of the problems as they’re kind of mean and on star trek’s back on so internally the board they just take over any kind of system the crowd control the use of all the natural resources so they eat up all the primary food supplies that the other animals in the lake depend on  and they disrupt  some local muscles like the  unity ETS are endangered mussel species that we have a lot of our lakes and streams around here N. A. so just completely crashed the food chain they also make the water a lot more clear which kind of thing people think oh that’s good you know why this town like look like the Caribbean however while lake Travis does right now and that may be pretty but it’s actually really bad for the environment because that’s just a lack of all that stuff and that also means that then the light can penetrate deeper so that’s hotter deeper than it’s supposed to which further changes ecosystem  so different plants are growing and you’re selecting for different things and just completely takes over  now economically why people care so much is that they grow in these massive swarms and they completely clog up pipes and infrastructure and because in the U. S. about seven billion dollars was spent just on that species wild so  I didn’t know what is your muscle was in two thousand eleven and which is yeah I have to admit that but I was at a Christmas party was a relative of mine and my best friend were both complaining about zebra mussels in lake Texoma for totally different reasons as a biologist in around like a little social anxiety because I don’t know what this is I should start looking to the left on my phone put metal in there and  some other you know I just go and things like that and I really just like these guys are like thirty years behind when the stuff we’re doing you know if I’m going to kill cancer cells the whole trick is to just kill the cancer cells leave everything else alone right and the same thing in the environment I wanna kill just as he must leave everything else alone and then realize will not be cool idea for company and the time I was doing that with cancer cures in  but there is no way to find such a lofty idea without some significant grants and some backing it’s one of been done  so it really is and what what about cancer diagnostics again same problem if you want to catch cancer early you want to find it when it’s rare and  that you know because that’s when it’s there’s not much of that same thing with us right you want to catch it early otherwise it takes over and right now we are in the way they were doing it before isn’t just looking for the the larvae the villagers with the babies but there’s inherent problem there right so if you’re only trying to find the baby’s means it’s already spawning right so this is like detecting cancer after it’s already metastatic couldn’t right is that the dead patient and so we go in we start using those technologies that we use in cancer diagnostics for detecting them earlier if you really want affected we treat a cancer you have to characterize it so then we started doing it in those technologies to not just understand is the population they’re not but they’re alive or dead as respond to stress what’s the population doing so we can treat it effectively  but ultimately what we’re working on is not just about zebra mussels that’s just kind of are like a beach had market species  it’s it’s the whole ecosystem it’s protecting endangered species by monitoring where they are and figure out what’s going on with their populations in the environment it’s on protecting its other invasive species like Asian carp and things like that and ultimately trying to help it create bio diverse sustainable ecosystems essentially in biology the more diversity that you have  the stronger and the system is I think the same way with a population of people right so it kind of works out increased diversity leads to increased resilience of any population in biology  you can take that as you will with philosophical and theological experts I kind of think that’s quite beautiful but you know four so that was long sorry about no I I was just like just to hang on every word you’re saying while I hadn’t thought about that I hadn’t thought about that so go back two thousand and he said eleven two thousand eleven and you know it was you started researching so you can take some of the technology that you’re already we’re used to using for treating cancer and started in the fine the issue zero muscle so where are we at as far as is it still kind of has there been any controller anything cut does come out this is helping the situation  four zero muscles or is that still kind of in the works yes so we’re working on something don’t talk about the market that’s out there right now so mostly it’s for after the intake so once it’s in the system there some pretty harsh chemicals people can put in there but they’re not specific to zebra mussels there can they kill everything like so there’s like chlorine you know it’s like  you know things like chlorine and copper and stuff like that they’re not super specific and then you have to remove them before it hits the drinking water and  the issue is there’s also a dosing thing in different water chemistry is a different size pipe that works differently so unless you’re monitoring it constantly you don’t really know if it’s working well enough or not and you can’t be dumping chlorine into the lake so you’re never actually because solving them the root of the problem right there are a couple products that are better  one is  earth tech USY it’s not it’s not bad it’s not great it’s a  it is a copper formula but it’s  they you you can does that lower so they trying to say it’s more environmentally friendly so it’s a slight improvement but still not specific and this is in the these procedures okay about R. for water treatment yeah these are primarily for water treatment you can’t really put these in the lake of earth that claims that you can Texas says no hello it’s one of those  because I’d I have I have doubts about it not harming the local Muslim populations that are native so there’s another product out there called the equinox and this is kind of the first foray into a biological control it’s not super specific kind of discovered via serendipity  and it’s kind of expensive and there’s some issues with that  is but it’s it’s again improvement the good thing about that one as it went through the whole regulatory pathway we can kind of follow that for our solution so in your looking so is your solution also worship in only or is it actually triggers on the lake is actual it’s for the root cause so many guessing to talk about this kind of course yes this is kind of molecules gonna turn lego blocks here so to try and use it as B. as  you know  five thousand foot view is as possible  so essentially we’re trying to kill just the muscle right and there are enzymes and proteins that evolved over time  because we are in a constant rat race with bacteria and things that want to kill us right we build up our defenses they build up layers and the  the thing called Pseudomonas exotoxin a which sounds fancy but essentially it’s an ex of talks and that targets the root of the salad it cuts out its ability create proteins such as completely obliterate cells and not a function that doesn’t that can evolve away from quickly because it’s a very if you think about it you’re trying to remodel your house right and if you  if you take out a wall right find moving some some  some wire around or whatever you can’t take it out with a support beam has grown a lot more right it’s the same thing with themselves so if you take out a function that’s complete but you can’t live without right then installing it out right so anyway so we take the part of the extra tops in that does all the dirty work the enzymatic portion we get rid of the target demand so now it’s totally nice and you can drink it can’t bind to the cells  can’t do anything and then we take a some a tartan demand that we created with your of reclamation that’s specific for zebra mussels and tack it on to that portions now we’ve retrained this toxin to only be able to attack to attack zebra and quagga mussels like a lock and key thing right well and then we there’s a gene for this chimeric protein we’ve made so if if you’re if you’re keeping track this is so far we have  protein that was involved in a bacteria that was chopped up we’ve got a chunk of an antibody that we’re using as a target domain that was made in a mouse  and then grown is then merged with a human cancer cells we can more lies in the lab so now we’ve got humans mice and that Terry all on the same thing in the world take the gene for that and put it into a microalgae because microalgae can grow it super cheap and you basically tell the microalgae produces protein you can grow up super super cheap it’s natural to the environmental thing you can just killed off you’re not introducing anything life put in the environment and then for anything else that eats it is just heating microalgae but it carries this poison pill and so super quarta muscles it it kills them one particle detector that’s the approach that we’re doing while in like two minutes we just learned the solve that that’s the firm if that that that to me is poor you know it’s a it’s when I saw all the work that you do not listen really quite an intrigue because I’ve got a boat on Travis and up until a yes last year you saw the signs about your muscles but we didn’t see him and all the sudden they’re here right amulet worn everywhere everywhere it’s just like overnight yeah and so it’s nice to see that someone’s tackling that front from it from the perspective of it’s we’re only tackling that and nothing else yeah so how long until this you think this is ready to get out and start working yeah so lakes are companies kind of split it to  to parts when this is what we call our our eco are acts that prescription for whatever I can abort tagline is but marketing thought it was brilliant  Sonny kiss this is this is kind of part of that side of it other size detection monitoring  so this should start doing in water testing by the end of this year or early twenty twenty one and that’s not like we’re just gonna put it all on lake Travis right there to be some projects were essentially bloom often area and just treat that area and then go on tests okay what did it do to disrupt this did you know did it work as expected right now the state development they were doing is in the lab coat  far away from you I’m not sure this is not going to be  some terrible sci fi movie right mmhm yes the rain outs on lab and a twenty twenty beginning in twenty twenty one will start doing limited in winter testing and then how long does it typically take the testing and before it starts impacting  before we can start to the whole lake  so we have some partners a group called exponent mother or consultancy service for dealing with the regulatory citing emotional is ation and  you know I that what I would really prefer to them as far as a perfect time line here  I know that it takes equal knocks  look deeper knowledge was pushing for two to three years and upping I think closer to three to four years ago so probably be along that time frame to before we can just treat an entire lake without you know with the with the EPA exam that’s okay right yeah and then once you do one switch westerns are once we get approval we can do any like kind yeah yeah in so who who is a pain for all of this is it is it great question it varies considerably right because I mean you know I’ve had it recorded musicians want to pull up a collection I’m like it’s gonna be a big collection Gazans nuns again and  sometimes municipalities will do it a lot of times they’re just doing it from the intake though are the river authorities have some involvement but it varies from state to state region to region city to city who ends up paying for what parts of it because everybody has different interests everybody’s water segment like convoluted and then places like up in the Great Lakes region they have  some regional collective specifically around dealing with invasive endangered species and Texas it’s different every state is different so the answer is everybody really I mean ultimately chose up our water bill yep you know that the your city just approved a pretty hefty package for zebra mussel treatment and that’s just their end of the treatment post intake and that’s gonna show up on our water bill so we all do if it’s a sole even though you’re not you have a boat on the lake use restraint using using the water but even those that we have six people aboard the like the bear directly see in it yeah M. marina fees are going to increase and then have to pay some people I’m sure you’re dealing with that already I’m sorry it is it is what it is what  what where is your business going to be the next five years five years from now well we should have this lunch so by then we’re hoping to have  so we also do these  automated samplers for monitoring and pop and it basically  monitoring the populations not just are they they’re not really getting into what they’re doing so that you can control them so the idea would be five years from now we would have a whole bunch these automated samplers out there across the country and probably in Canada and Europe and talk in Europe right now about how to get that over there and we’re so we’ll be monitoring them finding out whether cropping up what’s happening what investors are coming and what’s going on with the natives and we know with them with the treatment plan is and then after we treat it say for zebra mussel infestation just an example I’m going to be treated with our product to get rid of them we met them you have to continue to measure to make sure that we got rid of more don’t need to retreat and then we have to continue measuring to make sure they don’t come back you know this is just like again with a cancer patient right now  once you get  you want once you get cancer removed if you go into remission you still have to go back to it over and over again for up for continued testing and that’s eventually where we’ll be in five years as that’s that’s that would end up being the business  we would be a week Cox St pharma and biotech is like well on the stack you know from prevention to diagnostics to services to  mission control and then this goes back in as he was on the story earlier you solve the zebra mussel issue then you look at other offices species knowledge right same technology it’s a platform technology and we just it’s just a different target all your changes how you target will build the there’s other kinds of invasive species now  plants and whatnot do this work plans as well  so we don’t we haven’t tested anything with plant systems issues they take things up differently restaurant probably have to use a different toxin backbone does possible it’s doable right now it’s just something that we haven’t explored yet  so right now everything’s animals and insects anything below minimum the only sorry that party I forget the name of the site was available for that yeah right now we’re on it we’re in animals only  however we can certainly additional research would be needed to go into plants so  skewed there’s some people working on that as well I mean all our stuff is aquatic yet because of it yeah water so nice as far as a  solvent it’s a great delivery vehicle things in the air and spraying all that stuff it’s just it’s not somewhere that we wouldn’t it’s it’s not let me say like we would never get into that right it’s just it’s not in our plans at the moment got it the mix as well just think about invasive it also just like you sent me to animals and insects  Emily thought about yeah I’m too exactly also not not not six  movement so one of the things that I was you really want to get across the show is you know one thing seven idea in front end in Salem will solve this thing entirely different thing is building a business around it right in some of the tools and resources that we want to make sure that the public house is the community service that is being done at ACC up Joyner biosciences  inhibitor newsletter how’s that helped you impacted you and how differences making building the business and knowing that you have that kind of facility  so  first to start now  people say like you know I’m totally self may do this from ground up or whatever that’s B. S. no one is self made we’ve just within a community right and there’s no way I could build this business without ACC’s program there bioscience incubator is phenomenal there’s nothing like it outside the country I don’t know how you would go from an idea to a biotech company without the services that they provide and the more that  community and  increases and we bring in more different groups in ACC I mean I’d love to have some marketing interns from nanometers coding against and then they have a great resource of local students learning really cool technology and skills and trade skills that we can absolutely utilize and being able to pull from that community has been phenomenal but with this decision that I keep hearing is just is just that not only is the incubator providing all the tools they then you’ll have to invest millions of millions of dollars for the slab right you just share this but also just the people you know the people that come from it in the students that are just really eager to learn and undercounted yeah a talented students in the program is great and the people who are working I mean these are talented smart students learning really cool technology in their right at our fingertips and for a low cost I mean think I mean my friends that are in the startup world most in mind you know apps right now has been the kind of that software and software space and you know they’re always asking me I always laugh when someone says what about hiring is not gonna be a challenge me hell no lease thing that I’m worried about are you kidding I just hired a scientist  you know it back in October and I put out you know I I put out a  you know the job posting I got over a hundred good application within thirty days while and you know the signs that we hired she is phenomenal and then the support the tax that we have A. C. C. every single one of them is phenomenal so I mean it’s just yeah that hiring is not an issue or if you work with you know in the bioscience incubator yeah well that’s that’s awesome it’s amazing the the the what this speaks to me the system that’s been built is truly a service known for people that are looking to get me this is a concern for students to start I want to learn I don’t know what I want to learn but the the ultimate goal is is I want to get a job after after schooling and so to be able have a for lack of better word ecosystem the only trains you in whatever you’re interested in but also kind of as the that ability to help place you yeah I agree with that so you know that Emeli who I just hired around you know she can come through the ACC system she’s got a master’s not that  you and broader and  but we had on the shortlist the two other people out of the three that Warner shortlist for both  from the ACC program and when we do not I feel so packs there so qualified instead and we was supremely qualified so I  sent out letters of recommendations to other people that I had worked with in the past and  I know every one of them has received a job offer at a company I used to work for and the other one I’m not I have to follow up with her to see if she’s landed it yet but yeah because the thing is I mean you get to know the students and the others are looking for jobs and I need whether it’s with my company or through my network they still get access to me that means my entire network and if I think you’re a good lab person a good scientist many go to bat for you will get you somewhere because then that looks good on me to examine on top of that we just like to help people out so well there is this thing that that  is super important for the audience out there building relationships I was told people so you know never burn a bridge always be kind always be your kind others and always see how you can help it’s not always about you know how you can help us how you can help others because this relationship these networks over time just continue to grow the rate of growth and growing at one point  I know this person does this and you’re able to you just never know what the future holds us as we just discussed everything involves an unfold in front of you and it’s always good to have those kind of relationships yeah and and can you build them and focus on them yeah but as you know one of the things that  you know I have a sister in law daughter in in in in and there’s things practices coal dusting the you don’t care about something like that  you as a parent no you don’t do that kind of stuff that has because here’s why the long game is that we’re a community yeah that’s what your point was in that you’ll ever do things by yourself it’s always takes others and others have specialized skills to help you get to that thing happens within a vacuum this is always a need assessment right now just so you know again back to them the comedy my philosophical and existential thoughts on the combination of sociology in molecular biology systems all the way down  anything that happens within the ecosystem invasive species things like that impacting Tyreek a system anything that I do to somebody else I’m working with impacts on tire ecosystem so it’s not just you know my actions it’s also how I build that network  and the more I can help out the scenes of the season the more they can help me out right over and get stronger mmhm no it makes complete sense so speaking of that  many people out there or are they found a problem they want to solve of maybe want to go to the hospital path what would your advice be  yeah be you be ready because it’s never going to be as easy as you’re expected to be  it has these last few years have been incredibly difficult every time you think oh if I just win this project or if I just get this thing or just have this level cash flow it’s going to be easier it’s not it just gets harder it’s always going to be harder and the only reason to do this is not because you want to get rich quick it’s because you really care about what you’re doing yeah if you don’t if you want insanely passionate about it or you just aren’t the type of person who can who can see yourself doing something  working for somebody else then this isn’t for you it’s simply if if you think you could you know if you can tolerate working at a large company and you’re like well that’s fine on but working for the weekend  I really like working for this large company I like having a big community instability a lot of benefits there if that doesn’t for some odd bizarre reason repulse you stability and good pay for some reason you don’t like those things  you know it anyway I sailed to the more clearly this is only for people who need it it’s not for people who want to try something new you see a lot of the start up tourism people come through and they just have this  yeah it’s gonna be great and also so much fun stuff started coming to him more about the community and trying to you know they think they want the label of entrepreneur more than they want their company to succeed right I work you know they want validation in the form of people telling them they’re great and they win this competition or maybe get some investment or something like that more than they really love their company or think that’s what they’re doing is important and I just I can’t imagine those people being successful long term growth no no I I completely agree with you everything you said residents with use it’s that thing that  that  you get up for every single morning right and it’s and it’s that passion that drives you there’s this call inside that you just have to answer to and and you’re right if you look at the terms of the job it’s not going to be there it’s one of those things that you know you know go do something else that that  is that job and gives your free weekends is your free time because as you pointed out that the I. why and do it all yourself and you it takes you know sometimes you work until two three in the morning and and and and honestly a seven days a week just because you have to build brand and then it becomes even more difficult just balancing segment we’re talking earlier for kids and they all have amazing things are doing their great I’ve always put the family before everything else however you know I I found a way to balance that the work life balance of got a good thing going for them but when it comes to the stability issue the waking up you know I’d say about forty percent of the time  with just crippling anxiety about going to so much today you know that’s hard there is it’s it’s it’s a challenge and it’s and then it’s hard to be then stay focused and know what you need how to how to correct so that he can be there for the people that need you whether that’s in the job Hey dean college job in your endeavors in general or if your familial relationships and everything else it is a  is that you have to constantly be on and it’s uncomfortable and it should be uncomfortable I think a lot of ways  good from monies also started community said this to me a couple weeks ago he’s like no discomfort is good discomfort breeds character discomfort let you know where your limits are and  if you’re not willing to plumb the depths of discomfort is that’s what the how do you discover it yeah don’t do that I had a conversation with this woman every year ago and he summed it up as like a journalism is a spiritual journey because you wake up every morning looking at something the mayor said okay and you’ve got to answer two years all right and so the self discovery the depths of who you are  comes out in this journey so if you’re ready to take that on and you’ve got an idea and a passion and Colleen go for it if it’s just this cool idea that’s gonna make a little money you likely likely they’re still buy lottery tickets you have a better chance not a loss coming again it’d be harsh but Briggs for sure well I certainly have enjoyed this conversation and I I learned a lot of the work that you’re doing and I don’t have much respect for the work you’re doing and I know that Austin Austin we we know that this issue is Israel and it needs to be taken care of them I’m glad there’s people in the U. the entrance like you they’re they’re having to deal with the facing there’s the entrepreneurs and but you’re doing it and  just know those people like me that really value the work that you’re doing because because it it does impact the entire environment and I’m part of that the whole ecosystem so thank you very much for that thank you I really appreciate thank you for having me picture you never know where the journey is going to take you thank you again John for your work and sharing your story to learn more about the work of the queue will end the ACC bioscience incubator please visit the links in arsenal’s sign small y’all is created in partnership between founding media and Austin community college bioscience incubator