What you’ll hear in this episode:

• Ali Cayne’s journey from food lover, to food educator, to podcaster and CPG brand
• The biggest hurdles Cayne has faced in her ventures and how she jumped them 
• Raising capital as a new CPG brand

Growing up, Ali Cayne was always experimenting in the kitchen and bringing her parents together around the dinner table. She feels a “soul connection” with food, and uses it as a means to connect with others and nurture herself and her loved ones on a way deeper level than simple macros and nutrients. 

Driven by this passion for the power of food, Cayne founded Haven’s Kitchen in 2016. The New York-based, recreational cooking school intended to help people who were intimidated by the kitchen learn and gain confidence so that they can cook what they like “without having it be a chore.” During the courses at Haven’s Kitchen, Cayne noticed that the most difficult, time consuming aspect of cooking for her students was preparing the sauces, which often required obscure ingredients and expensive cookware. Thus, her CPG sauce brand was born. 

Distributing Haven’s Kitchen sauces presented unique challenges. For one, the product is listed in the dairy category, since it needs to be refrigerated. Refrigeration also presented unique production and distribution timelines, and on top of that the CPG space was an entirely new arena for Cayne. She acknowledges that luck contributed to the success of her brand, but Cayne was also consistently finding creative ways to tackle problems. As an example, she started her own podcast “Second Life” to give other CPG brands a platform while educating herself about nuances of the industry. 

Cayne advises new CPG companies to hyper-focus on their local community and learn in a smaller market before expanding. Cayne also explains that everyone, without exception, needs to demo their product, and she recommends doing it in a creative, educational way. Rather than simply asking someone to try your product, show them how they can incorporate it with the items they’ve already selected in their shopping cart. She also gives detailed advice about raising capital (41:15-49:33), reminding new founders to keep “working capital” available so that they can continue to produce while they are waiting for their sales to translate to profit, which is not an immediate transition. She reminds the listeners that, “big accounts have a lot of cost associated with them.”

A great episode for new and old CPG brand entrepreneurs, Ali Cayne shares her top two pieces of advice for founders (49:35 – 52:40), which marketing and distribution techniques are most effective for her, and why “the biggest hurdles are mental.”  

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and check out other Packing Taste podcast episodes!

Host: Axel Brave

Guest: Alison Cayne

Transcript:

this is a founding media podcast if welcome to the packing tapes podcast I’m your host facts about it today I’m so excited to sit down with Alli Kane of haven’s kitchen located in New York City heaven’s kitchen as a place for people to experience and connect through seasonal food not only are they reconnecting people with food and cooking but they have launched a line of their own sauces to help make that process even easier Ali also hosts a podcast called in the sauce where she talks to fellow food entrepreneurs I knew we had to connect when she was in Austin this summer so here’s my conversation with Allie came welcome to us thank you it’s fun to be in Austin is actually cooler in Austin right now than it is in New York really yep well that’s strange because I have been sweating all day really someone taking a shower you you I did shower okay but looking thank you yeah well I’m happy to have you on you were one of my inspirations to start my own podcast awesome so I started listening to your stuff a couple months ago and then I had the ideal I think I can do this too about Texas brand yeah so I pitched the idea got the show and I’m always listening to you at the so it’s a huge fan

thank you I learned a lot I take some notes here and there but not I love it a lot so what I want to do I want to start off with your question which is how how were you like as a kid but maybe before that should you give us a little bit of a little bit of information about like what haven’s kitchen and yeah yeah let’s start there and then so can you about your childhood I’m well I guess it kinda all comes together because I have always been into teaching and I’m not I’m not for just the sake of teaching but I really love taking something complicated and kind of breaking it down into little digestible pieces whether it’s a recipe or in this case it’s C. P. G. so I I opened heaven’s kitchen in two thousand and twelve it’s a recreational cooking school just meaning that it’s not like a professional culinary program but it’s for people who just like wanna make dinner and are maybe a little intimidated by the kitchen or never really learned is a lot of you know Americans we haven’t necessarily grown up you know in the kitchen cooking and it it was doing great I mean it was it sort of is a love of my life and a lot of ways and making a lot of people happy and it was very based in sort of going to the green market and understanding how to cook what you want to eat but not having it be like drudgery and a chore so it was all about like global flavors but local ingredients and really understanding like from a sustainability perspective that home cooking is like the single best thing you can do for your health the health of your community farm labor practices environmental practices food justice issues like home cooking is kind of that one big lever and and inserting he added in but

where exactly in New York is it and when did you start it so I opened it in two thousand and twelve minutes on seventeenth street between sixth and seventh which is a couple blocks away from the Union Square greenmarket where I used to teach and basically the sauces involved out of our students saying you know we kind of know how to grill a piece of chicken and we get how to saute some tofu what we don’t have the time or kind of the where with all to make is that sauce that’s why we do take out that’s why we’re signing up for meal kits that’s why we go out to eat because I don’t want to shop for lemon grass and I don’t even know what I would do with it if I brought it home and by the way I’m not like mincing keepers or getting out of Cuisinart that I don’t own right and then I have to clean up the twelve or you know buying sesame oil and miso paste and mir and then you know buying all these different things in there these jars of thing sitting in the back of your fridge or your cabinet for like six years and then you kind of open them up you’re like wait what it what was I going to make with us so you know we kind of as a team thought can we create a sauce that is kind of like what we would teach you to make in the cooking school it’s in my cookbook and have it be like really high quality but also available in grocery stores like is it possible most people told us it wasn’t course which is you know exactly why you go do it so we launched the sauces add in did fancy food of twenty seventeen and fortunately had like a brand Whisperer thank god father and John Lawson who’s the northeast regional buyer of whole foods figured out distribution figured out packaging figured out things like margin was super easy stuff

yeah I mean we I don’t even know what the I don’t even know what a category was the you know did you know what C. P. G. was no of course not I still sometimes I’m like consumer product greatness you know right right exactly and I don’t know if you’ve ever heard on my podcast when Matt my engineer will like kind of companies it’ll be like you’re using an acronym like don’t use an acronym you know it’s kind of hard after awhile because you start you start to speak the language it’s like and that’s why it comes back to teaching and no Matt’s gonna start his own CBG company by the way well I think you should have his own podcast you so funny looser than the engineers of our show are the masterminds active same with Mariah so okay so so the school came in the sauces came and then you’re like well I’m gonna do this somewhat find out everything about it yes so you started interviewing exactly all sorts of leaders in New York right which is you know I mean it’s the best possible way to get an hour someone’s time for free you’re like you want to be on a podcast a lot of people are like well yes I do you know you could be literally no one could be listening to this right now and you’re like come on my podcast and I feel like okay great you know you’re going to give away our secret yeah there’s actually a story about a guy I don’t know if you I I might have said this on one of the shows but I read it it was like over the holidays and there’s like eighty year old man somewhere in like the United Kingdom and he wanted to be a DJ for his whole life and his wife build him like a studio and like set him up with like just a situation just like this and she’s like now you’re a DJ and he was like spinning records or whatever he did and he thought it was going out on some radio waves to people and it wasn’t but it made him feel so happy like a given probably like another ten years of life like he just felt like he had like reached his mission

and she was like it’s great he thinks that it’s going out to people but he’s just happy doing it so that’s kind of like us exactly what I station why is thrilled no one else well I’m glad it’s making us happy exactly and for the people I mean somehow or another people find it and you know other founders like people don’t know this stuff how would we this is really weird random stuff like you think you go to the grocery market there’s a product there if it’s good you buy it they still buy you know it’s it’s you don’t know that there’s this whole like massive system and they’re all these pieces to it and everything’s interconnected and it’s this whole other language yeah it’s kind of like the deep sea there’s like a whole nother world that as humans don’t know anything about yeah okay so that’s that’s most of the stuff you do now but yeah as a kid yeah what were you like how did your childhood play into this I want to be an educator specifically in the food room realm I mean it’s funny having that question come back to me because when I think about myself as a kid I definitely was like entrepreneurial I remember I made like smelly stickers by spring is like yes if things on to things on to stickers and like dropping vanilla extract and stuff and I was definitely interested in making things and and setting up pretends stores and things like that but I think I was uncomfortable with like the selling part like I like the making part and I liked did the exchange kind of but I I was never about like who can I can I get my goods into that person’s hands kind of yeah and and so I kind of shied away from that part of my personality I think for a really long time and decided that that was not who I was and the teaching part was always part of me I’d like would set my Barbies like in their chairs and like pretend that you are my students and you know I was definitely like I when I pictured what my life would be like I thought I would be a college professor and I would live on a campus somewhere and like that just seemed very idyllic to me what were your parents educators are professors my mom actually taught deaf and hard of hearing children so she had you know she had students come to her like she had a therapy kind of practice in our apartment and my dad was a business guy like you know Wall Street eighties dude mmhm

and yeah I’d never really I you know didn’t consider myself a math person so I thought well I guess I’m not a business person which is wrong by the way everyone out there totally different things they’re totally do you can I mean it’s not finance its business yeah they’re different and so I ended up getting married really young and I had five kids in eight years and so I kind of took myself out of the work force went back to school to get my master’s degree in food studies in sustainability and that’s when basically I opened heaven’s kitchen but I didn’t really think of it as a business until like four years after we were open I thought of it as a school so so did it kind of unraveled itself I mean I I’m trying to think of like I’m gonna do this having no idea it’s a business and its remains a float yeah I mean I feel I am the luckiest I just feel like the luckiest person on the planet I just keep falling ass backward into things that are great you know I mean I was lucky it was profitable I was lucky people loved it I was lucky a product landed in my lap I don’t have to go searching for one you know that the lines growing the brand but also growing the mission like how lucky am I yeah those are the moments you have to cherish I think I’m I’m just I just I am so grateful yeah so so when you were when you were went to school for for food studies and then opened up haven’s kitchen that’s when you were realizing that you have this attachment towards food and sustainability I always had an attachment towards food I think you know I was in New York CAD and an only child and my mother had fought very hard for her right to not be in the kitchen and so I had the kitchen to myself

and it was just I loved food from a really young age and all of that kind of quote unquote happy families that I saw around me all had a kitchen table culture and I really wanted that so the way that I would get my parents to the kitchen table was by cooking or you know the way I would get people to come over was by like having little dinner parties in middle school and I just watched a lot of Julia child and I watched a lot of galloping gourmet and I experimented with a lot of things that didn’t go great but it was my place for creativity and it was my place for you know happiness and it was the way that I brought my family you know together yeah and so school was just you know NXT I I knew I loved food I knew I loved eating I didn’t want to be nutritionists I don’t want to go into public policy because I’d done policy work before and got married and there was this program in like food studies in sustainability and that that just seemed perfect yeah so I mean I’m I’m thinking like every obviously everybody loves food the whole foodie culture is always growing the trends are always changing but when you were in your parent’s kitchen and you’re realizing like there’s actually this food culture this thing that brings people together I don’t think a lot of people notice that and you did so do you think noticing that is what makes us this breed of food food entrepreneurs yeah but because I I I know you talked about this a couple times but like our unite the specific type of person that in surrounds ourselves with food and like people who love food yet people who love food but like to have it brings us together yeah it’s like a hundred percent yeah I love eating well I love tasty food but what attracts me to it the most is this like in my friends all around the table yeah talking about whatever yeah yeah yeah I mean I think of us as like

I don’t know I think of us as like if you if you can see colors you know like not necessarily an or but I think of food people is purple people and I think of fashion people is pink people and you know like when you have a little purple around you and you know there are good texture people that feel this way about going to see architecture you know I just I don’t really but the not everyone’s a foodie not everyone feels you know I could cry at a good strawberry literally like if you go to the farmers market and there’s just like what a strawberry should be mmhm and you bite into it and it’s all the way through you know and it’s just it’s it’s more it’s amazing there are a lot of people who do not feel that way yeah and I wonder it be interesting to see like MRI studies done of our brand our brand we eat food and like other people I don’t wanna say normal people other people who eat food because it does it does do something to me like my my your whole soul yeah and I think you know I work in the hospitality industry right I’ve been in that industry forget about like consumer packaged goods for second leg restaurants in New York and hospitality in New York there’s I think there’s a part of your brain but I also think that there something in your upbringing to some extent and if this is a big generalization I think those of us that were sort of lonely are really connected through food or we missed a certain amount of nurturing and we tend to nurture others through it or we see connection through it and then the flip side those who really grew up super nurtured and super around a table you know it’s like it’s kind of the either or those people end up financing so yeah so so when you’re when you’re just not telling your story about lonesome cooking by yourself for the family I kind of bring it in my head

I’m like I don’t know that’s possible I grew up we had a family dinners four times a week we on Sunday everybody came over to our house and coach yeah I was always around people and now I have this addiction yeah it call it a problem if you want but I need to be around people and I need to be around and I would always think like oh maybe people who maybe only chip only children are like people who don’t grow up around so they don’t they just don’t care but you just open up my eyes that I mean there’s a statistic and I know this because I’m an only child who has five children and the statistic with only children for example is that we either have only children or we have many children there isn’t a lot of in betweens wondered because you either loved your childhood or it was lacking for you and I think it’s sort of similar right I think you can’t imagine having a family gathering that isn’t around food you know that doesn’t involve sort of being together and working together and creating something together and sharing it so of course that feels very comfortable that you know to you for me I witness that I watch that isn’t like whether it was on TV here in my few friends houses that had that and I wanted it so badly you know and that I created it yeah now you have it and so it’s very beautiful so okay so now to get into the to talk about some I guess so you you the school sauces podcast sorry about the sauces for a bit you have five very tasteful sauces I’ve tried a couple of them in fact my before I heard your podcast my uncle texted me a picture of your chimichurri sauce and I was like I was having such a bad day that day and then I got this some like dams more competition in this bad ass bag that’s whatever okay and then I heard your punches some liquid agents kitchen or did my research I’m like oh my god this is the bag my uncle side away there is no such thing as competition we are building the category to gather my friend totally super fun yes yes and and the interesting thing and I didn’t know this about you guys and so I started listening was that

and you’re right we’re we’re not company where we’re all working together the but the interesting thing is you guys are in a totally different kind of yeah we are we’re in the the condiment category which I think is hard but you guys are in the dairy category which is even harder it’s ridiculous yeah I mean so it’s a vegan sauce in the dairy category yeah so wow why well why you know it’s funny right so in addition to people saying okay sorry you’re gonna make a fresh refrigerated sauce none of them by the way share any ingredients right like you have skews that are all over the place they just did which is completely not efficient right in a pouch and then give us the five the five names of young so we have a can you say cherry cherry Jimmy to retest because I like the way you want me and we have a gingery miso we have a red pepper masco which is it traditional you know Catalan Barcelona that part of Spain’s sauce we have a ninety lemongrass that’s cashew and lemongrass and ginger and lime which is sort of that southeast Asian flavor profile and then we have a hurry stuff which is like a north African sort of hot sauce but it’s got hints of cinnamon and lemons Aston so it’s kind of warmer kind of rounds out it’s not like a hot sauce like you you can’t do a hot sauce and you know the first question is Hey how are you going to do that and make any money mmhm you know be where’s it gonna go in the store and that’s really at the end of the day you know I was like I’ll settle go somewhere right there’s refrigeration the shelf it is that where it goes in the store is very much decided by the category that it’s then and then the buyer for that category and how much you know who else is in there and so you know if you’re a refrigerated product they’re not that many options you’re either in produce which is usually vegetables and you know the guacamole that whole foods makes the kitchen deli you know which is neat usually amiss and harness rate how Mrs part of dairy like that it is

yeah even those next to the a cement and then or dairy and dairy used to be yogurt and then how much came around in two thousand and nine so with any each category like within the dairy category there are sets so at whole foods for example they have a home is that they have a refrigerated condiment set but it lives under the dairy category so we tend to get that tends to be our buyer we do have a couple stores where we kind of get kicked over to the Delhi buyer because they do think oh this is good with me which it is but it’s it’s you know when you’re kind of creating a new and it like an entirely new kind of category you’ve kind of got to build your home like where would perfect Fargo you know who’s buying that rated their fridge rated bar but were you looking at let’s hold up there when you were thinking about this Hey I’m gonna make sauces and my students want to have sauces were you were you did you understand like I’m gonna I’m gonna make these phenomena make these fresh and they’re gonna go in the fridge because that’s where it’s going to stay for the freshest right yeah that I mean I wanted I got into this because a sustainability okay the last thing I wanted to do is create a product that like didn’t need to exist there’s a ton of products out there like in my humble opinion are just copy cats of other products they’re not really bringing any added benefit to anyone there’s nothing really unique or special about them like the eighteen Suraj is that I mean sure everyone of you you know I mean I if I’m going to put something in a package and it’s going to be distributed by trucks that use fuel it better be doing something good yeah you know it better be counteracting something on the other side of that so to me just making another jar didn’t feel like I was really doing that you know I wanted to create something that really made people cook more at home and I think that these things really do sell for that but no I thought about nothing I thought it’s kind of crazy that this doesn’t exist and then when you know people are like well there are reasons why this doesn’t exist in might not make it it might not be something that can’t exist in the system that you know we’re working and unfortunately you know I did it anyway and it’s it is working in the system and I think there’s gonna be lots more refrigerated condiments coming in just like a mess you know opera came in two thousand and nine and no one knew what that was it was brown

I thank you know who is the buyer for that the consumer had no idea what it was or how does it they had to educate people like on what home this was yeah flashforward ten years later so so there’s no there’s no like there’s not a lot of confidence in that now there’s there’s you’re literally creating this yes okay yeah so you see under my eyes tags is the bag but it’s yeah it’s it’s crazy it’s ridiculous but I kind of wanna one in any other way you know because yeah but it keeps your gun so so as soon as you like I’m doing it this way yeah I’m sure all the buyers and distributors were like okay well this here the list of problems you need right what what were some of those how did the legislation okay so no one pays himself for distribution at the beginning there like I’ll just put in the cooler and I’ll drop it off and igloo cooler exactly that doesn’t work so you know you have to really you know I again I’m not a flawless numbers person but I know that if it’s going on the shelf at seven dollars you know I’m paying it I get paid four dollars right because someone’s gonna make the money and they’re the retailer needs to make the money then the distributor needs to make the money so if I’m selling it to someone for four dollars it can’t cost me three dollars and ninety nine cents to make right so you kinda have to back into can I do this reasonably you know for under a dollar fifty you know per package or can I see a time when I could you know if I get if I buy enough ingredients and I get packages you know and bulk and you know but if if it’s costing you too much then you know I think the number one thing that and I say this a lot I have a lot of friends who have amazing products but the businesses behind the products don’t really work because it costs too much to make that amazing product and so at the end of the day sales are great but sales are actually accumulating how much you have to spend which is not the goal you know you’re going in the wrong direction a little bit yeah and and they just for the people listening

I think sometimes I feel that way that maybe my product is awesome but some sometimes I’m like matches their business for this right but you have to keep checking in and looking at the numbers because sometimes you’ll feel like if there’s no business for it but there really is you just not doing telling you might you know the business one thing that’s been super fine about this whole experience is talking to people and like you know the business might not be for everyone grocery store the business for some people might be directly into food service which is a huge business right or directly you know into private label or you know someone was saying they I met someone who made this really cool thing for her grandmother who was having a hard time swallowing and she was like I need to get my Instagram followers up and I need to meet the buyer at whole foods and like or you should just go to every geriatric doctor in New York and get them to sell it for you this is a great product why are you building an Instagram for like ninety year old yeah you know there’s a business there’s like a there’s a route for every business you just kinda have to find out what your route is but you have to be brutally honest with yourself because I think we were coming to maybe a little bit of an end of an era where everyone just looked at sales you know there were a few years there where it didn’t matter what the bottom line looked like as long as the sales were good and then you would just raise venture money and eventually hopefully it would come out in the wash if you’ve got acquired mmhm that’s not happening so much anymore you know you have to have some good some good kind of bones there yeah and maybe not not even just the numbers but like a great mission and and and well how do you give back to the community and stuff like that but missing can’t be sell products

yeah yeah but but you’re right I think a couple years ago the like recently it’s let’s look at the top line how much money are you making we don’t care how much debt you have will fix that right ani yeah and the problem with that model is that it sounds really compelling if you’ve been working your ass off as the founder for last couple of years but what you don’t realize is that you end up with you know under like less than ten percent of your company that way because you just keep raising money because it’s out there and they’re people willing to give it to you but you’re not raising money for nothing right you’re giving away part of your company for that money and so how worth it is it at the end of the day yeah you know so well and we’ll get we’ll get the capital raising hearing about it yeah my favorite but so I guess I guess one of the more complex hurdles you had to cross was distribution and figure out like how do we keep this cold from point a to point B. how fast do we need to move it but how and and when I asked you what should we talk about on the episode I have no idea you’re busy that but you said for forecasting so is there any like specific tips you have wall casting so I’m here with my head of sales and I don’t know there’s just she’s you’ve taught me a lot and I you know because people will say like so what do you think you’re going to do this year you know and I’m like well so you know that we’ve got five skews in I think will be and you know however many doors which is just another word for stores and you know I think we will sell that you know a couple units each skew per week and I think we should end up somewhere and about you know five million dollars like you have no idea right you can and one thing is true we always as founders sake we always kind of over estimate rates and and I try really hard to be conservative but at the end of the day I just really love my product to like it it’s going to do great when you start in the numbers you have in funny like you know what I mean I’m a solo you know what you don’t what you don’t know when you first start is something like a reset rate so even thinking about next year if we there are stores that will not put you in until they’re reset which is April or may so you’re thinking twenty twenty I’ve got twelve months of these many doors with this many skews you don’t you actually have eight months that’s a big difference

so all of that is like I think to really build a thoughtful forecast is think about like what stores do you want to be and what stores makes sense the way the guys out there that are opening every store that wants them I think it’s a big mistake you can’t support those stores and not everyone is your consumer right and a lot of the big stores right now like you know the guys they’re approaching little brands like ours because they want the cool kids and they want to be innovative but they can’t really support little brands like ours and so people make the mistake of going to those guys too early and they’re opening up wearing ten thousand not great you can’t right now I agree I like I hear stories of people going to Kroger do you get two thousand stores and you’re two years old yeah it’s like this that is not gonna make your mistakes and you’ve got to learn how to build a good team and you learn like how do you enter a cold market rate we’re in New York City brand people in New York City now us how do we even introduce ourselves to other places you know so so what would have been some like very specific techniques that you guys are using that are just hill in it right now because I know we both have had people on our show talk about hyper focusing in your community yes so what are techniques that have been really working for you I think one thing that we really learned was you know that ET everybody needs to demo you need to do demos you might think that you have the greatest pretzel crisp in the world and you might have a hundred thousand social media followers that doesn’t necessarily mean that that the buyer at the store is going to give you nice shelf space or that you’re going to do a lot of you know movement at the store so for us to sort of I think it’s a little arrogant frankly of a brand to think that they don’t need to play by those rules so you’re committing to demos to support the store and you’re also doing it to like what they call drive trial right which is a fancy word of saying getting people to taste your broadsoft cookie or your ice cream so for us you know we we we committed to demos but you know there’s a very big difference and like Hey you want some sauce verses like I see of broccoli in your cart can I make a suggestion of how you might cook that really well tonight or how are you going to make those lamb chops have you ever tried ginger miso lake there is it for us the way that we’ve kind of phoned in as we are a cooking school so we’re leaning hard into the fact that that is who we are and so every opportunity we have to turn a demo into a teaching moment or something educational we’re gonna do yes as occasion from from your childhood yeah there you go very interesting and you’re right everyone again everyone has been on here is sorry Ryan who is everyone has been here on the show is the main thing like yeah from thirty years ago demo yeah always demo I know he’s always always been for and I’ve heard beautiful stories from like big name companies at the under ten years old now who have ninety million dollars in capital infusion yeah we started off in one store and we demo there four times a week

absolutely because the thing is is that AP you know I think for a minute there you know people started thinking that Instagram is gonna solve all that rate that you know you would build such a big community and quotes online and then everyone would be demanding that the stores carry your product because they saw it on there scrolling it just doesn’t work like that like there’s nothing still to this day like a person looking you in the eye and being like here’s how you use your mask and a of course and like as as much as the world’s involving and all this new social media we are literally still animals we buy ology that’s not going to change and we need to be engaged right here and all of this you know there’ll be no more supermarkets they’ll be no more stores even if all of the predictions are right it’s still like eighty percent of grocers are gonna be bought in a store by twenty twenty five but of course eighty percent that’s still a lot of percent and it’s gonna not be right it’s going to be the products because if you think about it the grocery stores like the original like experience on marketing right it is an experience you go N. you touch things you play you feel around you know that’s two lists but I don’t I’m not a believer of the groceries are gonna turn into distribution centers and we’re gonna ship everything I don’t I don’t believe that at all L. because where food people yeah okay I hope it’s a good thing okay let’s see kind of going to the second part of our discussion I know I know we’re taking a lovely time but I like that what are your I guess some some hurdles that you’ve encountered that you’ve totally like over came with us Terry category your sauces are educating the consumers honestly the biggest hurdles are mental you know the biggest hurdle for me is like you are so heavy your skis like what the heck are you doing you are not a numbers person you are not a business person you don’t like sales what are you doing you know and I think everything else is overcome a ball you know all it is is learning the language if you plopped me and said you know Rome and you were like go speak Italian I would like I’d be lost straight and I would feel like I was in way over my head and then you know you learn like Joe the cast with exactly like you just have to learn the rules

like I learned pretty early on that you can’t count on your DST distributor to do your merchandising you need to have your own field team making sure that you are in stock that your product looks good on the shelf I didn’t know that rule why would I have known that right so there’s no problem they can come your way the you can’t learn the biggest problem for me has been that voice inside me that’s like you’re not you’re not like a venture guy you’re not a dude who you know in business school decided there was a white space somewhere and you know you’re too old you’re too this you’re too that and getting through that and fighting those demons I thank will probably remain my biggest challenge you know as the saying goes it’s it’s the problem isn’t the problem the problem is your attitude about the problem a hundred percent yeah and I think I think as entrepreneurs that’s the biggest like you said the biggest game is your head gas like that’s that’s the that’s the main hurdle and you know I had I had a guest on heat the it’s going to be it’s a guy named Matt Bachmann from wandering bear cold brew and it will be on in a couple weeks because it was a pre recorded but he said you know as an entrepreneur you get addicted to the adrenaline you know you have like you you just every win is like a big win but then every time it’s even just a little quiet you’re like what’s going on what’s wrong things are failing like there’s no difference between Thursday and Friday but Thursday you got a couple of funny emails and Friday was like a little tricky you know and then all of a sudden you’re depressed you know and it nothing’s changed but I think all Aquino regulating yourself is is a big part of it yeah and it’s funny you bring that up because I the first thing I said when I walked in here it’ll run like when I was a girl has everything going she’s like oh it’s slow like Jesus you like the person today right on I know things are slowing rate lake yeah and and you know you do get a little depressed you get like elementum I doing something wrong about them my not working hard enough

absolutely yeah and then you’re looking at the media and everyone’s like an overnight success and you’re like wait I don’t feel like an overnight success or like how come but if you know you’re only getting a little tiny glimpse into what they’ve actually gone through you know and I think all of us have that that’s why I think as founders it’s really important that we you know that we have other people that are in it with us that we can talk to and you know because it’s it’s very it’s vulnerable you know having these big meetings like how many people do you tell you have a big meeting because if it doesn’t go well then you have to be like in tango great you know it’s all of it it’s just very personal and it’s and you’re vulnerable and you know the winds feel really amazing but of course no one really understands them outside of this industry because they’re ridiculous you know so it’s it’s it’s a weird little world yeah I had a I have a very close friend of mine who pointed out once we were sitting with a bunch of founders and entrepreneurs and we’re asking people how things are going with their company and either they only give two responses question it will yeah either either things are good our people are crushing it so it’s like things are good that means things are still slow or whatever and if they cross something great just and I’m just I’m so not like a weird question it kinda gal like I’m just not you know sell yes so I guess

I got so many questions I feel you I definitely have that feeling let’s let’s talk about funding for a bit because what I say and this is like a two month realization three month realization on me well like all these companies are going growing at such a fast speed what is it money they’re getting capital infusion yes and it’s because they’re trying to keep up with the market and things are moving so quick and yes social media does expedite things and yada yada yada how important is it how do we get it so I think that’s a really good question I am really looking forward to being able to really break this down and talk about it Holly candidly right now I’m a little bit in it so it’s hard to talk about a hundred percent I will say this when people talk about bootstrapping that is a very expensive way to go it’s if you are making a product that sort of expensive to make and it’s gonna take some time to get to a place where you actually can start to make money on that product which is probably three years five years sometimes if you have enough in like saved up or you have friends and family that can support you for that five years then you’re in a okay spot to bootstrap you’re not getting a bank loan everyone who thinks I can go to the bank you are not I think not that I know we all thought not yet because it’s a great idea and I you know you need to have millions of dollars a hundred to have something that they can if you don’t pay them that they can go get it right so and so at the end of the day it makes sense that companies are looking to venture funds and you know angel investors to fill that gap I think you know obviously the goal is to make a product where the margins makes sense where you can fill the gap is shorter if you’re not gonna be profitable for ten years you’re going to always be fundraising not a great plan right in a fresh product

like mine my margins are never going to be that amazing you know they say like make up is like ninety eight percent gross margin or something like the actual formula costs like nothing but that’s why they have all that marketing money and that’s why they spend so much and great packaging a fresh sauce is not even close to that so you know I think a you’re gonna need money if you’re going to do this to kid yourself into thinking that somehow you’re going to make enough money to pay for it and that you’re gonna break even in six months is very unlikely you know I think that you just have to choose very carefully who you’re letting into your business and who you’re giving that equity to you know we don’t always get to be choosy when were first raising money one thing I’ve learned is you now I think it’s an amazing product I don’t know that everyone else gets sick you know or like I you know they they’re looking they have their own reasons for investing you know they want to grow something in this category are you know I’ve gotten some people say like we’re just not interested in a product that doesn’t have a direct to consumer piece mmhm and I don’t have insurance you know it would cost twenty dollars to fed ex one pouch of sauce overnight like no one’s paying for that will be sold all five you could but again you still have to build like an infrastructure to do that you need an entirely different like supply chain and then pick and pack you know warehouse and yeah you need to build out a website to do that in the E. commerce platform to do that and then you need to buy it you know Facebook ads to get that out there I would rather use whole foods as my as my connection to my consumers you know and I will spend money there I want to say it’s not as hard as you’re making it sound but it is directly to consumers yeah you’re right especially for a product that needs to be refrigerated I mean and and I have I don’t have the same issue with my stuff but I use glass

yeah my stuff was a lot yep so to ship a nine dollar jar to California it’s twelve dollars so it’s like this issue so I’ve been trying to find out like who maybe I just sell bundle packages so than people think it’s right and and their ways to scan it but at the end of the day it costs money of course right it’s not that I think people have this impression that lake and I guess this is happened where overnight something’s just become like this incredible success and you know you know everyone in the world one set and then you have to be you know it’s more like a fad yeah I I guess to go back to the the funding we’re at the beginning where you like I’m not going to take a dollar like we can bootstrap this we have with so the item is given yeah percentage yes so for us yum you know havens the school was profitable for you know the last since the second year that we opened so twenty thirteen and you know this turns out to be the case with most female founders I kept most of that money and heaven’s kitchen so I was paying myself a little bit but most of it stayed in the business which was great because when it came to making the sauce we had money so as I started going through that money I started thinking like how where’d this is going to run out at some point rate and so you make your model and you’re like okay this is how much I’m gonna spend this year this is how much I have in my little bank how how comfortable on my putting in any more personal money or asking friends to and so then you have to start thinking like I’m gonna need some cash like for this to work you know because again and people also don’t realize this like even when you make a sale you don’t get paid you know so there’s there’s one thing which is just money in the bank but the working capital pieces what people kind of mess right say that again once you make a cell you don’t get paid so I mean house and probably give me about his back tattoo so what you’re saying no you go in and you’re like Hey Mister buyer this would be great right and they’re like yes I like this I will buy you know I will buy this for my store and then they tell the distributor and the distributor puts in an order and you ship out you know you go through your production and you make your thing and you send it to your distributor and then you wait how many months three months if all goes well

if I if it sells meanwhile you had to put out the money to make today to do the production so you got to just look at like okay I might make you know I might make a million in sales this year but I need to have working capital every month to be able to produce the product and that’s where people get really stuck because they find that there’s a big gap yeah and it’s it’s funny for people like us who were bringing on like leaders and people who know what they’re doing on yeah and we’re learning all this stuff and it’s like okay now I know what to do now I need fifty thousand more but yeah I didn’t really realize how much I needed to raise until I started really asking some questions and talking about it because everything when it’s kind of small it feels you know feels manageable the the thing is if you want to grow it bigger your super pumped about the big accounts but a you need to produce for those accounts and be like once you’re in them you have to do demos and you have to run promotions and there might be spoils and all of a sudden there’s all these other costs you know you have to be ready and that’s why I think all the people giving you the same advice is me if you launched massive right away you won’t know what you need to fix and so you’ll be out there you know like in all of the stores and you won’t be doing a good job on demos and you won’t know how to promote effectively and you and you where do I do a dark Instagram ad which state should I choose to to run some and how do I even know if that’s even working there’s just it’s it’s too complicated of a language it’s like me deciding to go to Italy and instead of like learning the language deciding to write a novel in Italian it’s it’s just too big yeah you know I guess someone can do it people figure it out but not without a ton of money yeah okay so we we do need to wrap ups and have two more things I want to ask maybe one no to what what what are what are some of words of wisdom that have really resonated with you that we can share with whomever’s listening

that’s a good question I’m I think that I think the word there too there to sort of different types of wisdom one is really dig in to if you’re a brand person and like the story behind the thing but you’re not really a numbers person you need to dig into the numbers you know if you’re a numbers person and you really love the financial modeling of it you need to figure out who you are and what your brand is and and what’s your identity like that dig into the parts that don’t necessarily get you that jazzed because those are probably your weak spots you know and they’re not always fun and there they can be really frustrating but you really want to know that stuff before you go out to raise a dollar or you go out to talk to any buyers like you want to know the staff like the back of your hand so I think that’s really good advice so be it be kind of like become wholesome with yourself a hundred percent know your business you know every part of it like you know think about it as a whole you know think about it is like I literally draw this out for people start with supply you know ingredients how to make the actual thing what does it look like how when he gets on a truck what does free even mean what is warehouse saying how does it where does it said what did the stores look like what is my category what stores do I want what are they looking for from me how do I market it how do I promote it then going to digital media and talking to the consumer and what’s my brand identity and how to how to all of the different parts of my brand speak to this to this product right there’s like a massive system there and you kind of have to really understand all of it you know

and we get these little gray areas more like a I you know I don’t read contracts I can’t really deal with the legal stuff well no actually do that’s your job you’ve got to read that and you’ve got a like slog your way through it because it’s just English it’s like just words right there’s nothing special you just haven’t learned that language yet so teach yourself out language or get someone to teach you I think the second thing is just you know you’re going to feel defeated at times and you’re going to feel like not a lot of hope and you’re gonna feel pretty crappy and during those times really just know the people that you should talk to and reach out to an you know unfortunately it’s not usually always the people you work with because they need you to be sort of pumped up you know so find your people and trust them and lean on them don’t be afraid to be vulnerable with beautiful love very very good the pieces of advice I think people need to remember those kinds of things especially with our addiction to risk no remembering that there is lost to that but that the successful come if you keep wanna and I think you know the zeitgeist of crushing it you know when you’re not crushing it and you feel like everything around you is just stories of people crushing it you start to feel kind of crappy it’s like Instagram I mean like a fourteen year old yeah you know why wasn’t I invited to the party the same feeling to okay Leslie yeah the couple in like a minute left two minutes left but just like we started with one of your questions I want to end with one of your questions what’s been the most fun you’ve had what’s your favorite like milestones so far I can’t get too into it but today was probably today was a good day today was a good day yeah but it is a wonderful wonderful

I think the first day that so my director of sales and my director of operations started on the first day in January and basically what happened was we were doing well and and you know it was time to like actually hire a team and like actually make this set at a real thing and we had their first day was like a real onboarding and it was kind of the first time where I could sort of put this all into one big power point like this is this is who we are and this is what we’re doing and this is what operations look like and this is what sales look like and this is where they meet and this is how we talk about ourselves and it was just the energy in the room and they were just these two really talented really smart people that chose me to to come work with which was really exciting for me and our whole team just kind of had this it’s like okay we’re gonna go build this thing and that was a that was a great day yeah it’s every day’s a good day mostly it’s beautiful the serve watching the synergy on the first day yeah yeah well I think I think we have to wrap up but I again appreciate you coming in last minute to do an episode with us for you guys listening if you guys ever New York collab haven’s kitchen yet go to a class you know go learn about some romesco and then go to the whole foods there and and by some of her wonderful sauce there they’re very delicious and what you can do from anywhere is listen to one of our episodes of in the sauce it’s on iTunes yet and that’s where you get your podcasts anywhere you get your podcasts so again alley thank you very much for coming did it thank you it was really fun thank you again alley I hope you really enjoyed your time here in Texas and we expect to see you soon if you guys want to hear more about alley under sauces check out our podcast in the sauce thank you and I out for heaven’s kitchen sauces hopefully coming soon to a grocery store near you the packing tasting includes me axle brother producer Mariah gossip and audio engineer Jake Wallace thank you everyone at founding media for your support if you’ll have really been enjoying the show please rate review and subscribe you know the drill you can also follow along for some behind the scenes photos on our social media app packing tapes podcast on Instagram thanks for listening