What you’ll hear in this episode:

• Jessica Goudeau’s work with refugees and her award-winning books on the subject
• Constance Dykhuizen’s insight into responsible and ethical storytelling for charitable organizations
• The importance of giving clients the freedom to name themselves and their needs

We’re shaking things up this episode! Great Society’s host Constance Dykhuizen is switching seats to be interviewed by author, producer, scholar, and fellow activist Jessica Goudeau. The two met by chance in Thailand where they were both seeking to gain insight into the refugee resettlement process, and their paths crossed again in Austin working with refugees in Goudeua’s nonprofit Hill Tribers. Over time, their professional relationship developed into a friendship by virtue of their shared passion: giving a voice to the voiceless.

Goudeau accomplishes this through her films and books, which include the award-winning novel After the Last Border: Two Families and the Story of Refuge in America. She has a nonfiction work titled We Were Illegal forthcoming this year, and she has numerous articles in The New York Times, The Atlantic, and other publications.

Dykhuizen is also a storyteller. She uses her experience as a donor advisor creating philanthropic relationships and working with nonprofits to help charitable organizations craft ethical, intentional,and empowering messages. As a branding, strategy, and marketing consultant, Dykhuizen travels the world helping these entities understand the “strength and complexity” of their mission, ensuring that their work is done “with and on behalf of” their constituents while still engaging donors.

It’s easy for fundraising and awareness campaigns to portray their clients as desperate and the donors as their saviors, but this is a misrepresentation of the reality and is dangerous and irresponsible to the clients in the short- and long-term. “Talk about the people you want to help as if they are going to be your neighbor one day,” she advises, noting that one marker of a responsible charity is when the person with the most power in the organization knows the names of the people with the least power.

It is vital to seek the constituent’s input, not only when it comes to what work should be done on their behalf, but also in regard to the words that are used to identify themselves and their challenges. Dykhuizen clarifies that everyone is different, and each individual should be able to choose their own identity and narrative.

“Letting people define themselves” is at the core of both Dykhuizen and Goudeau’s missions. If the people that Goudeau writes about feel represented and honored by her work, then she considers her book successful. Dykhuizen’s definition of success is also aligned with her constituents as the “freedom to choose” – from the freedom to choose what projects she works on to the freedom to choose how their needs are represented in a campaign.

Listen to the full episode to hear their entire thoughtful and thought-provoking conversation, including some captivating travel stories! And don’t forget to like, subscribe, and check out other Great Society podcast episodes.

Great Society is a founding_media podcast created in partnership with Constance Dykhuizen.

Host: Constance Dykhuizen

Guest: Jessica Goudeau

Find Goudeau’s award-winning book here!

Transcript:

this is a founding media podcast hi everyone talking a great society podcasts are people who are working to elevate the voices of others I’m your host Constnace today were flipping the script the guest is me my friend Jessica go academic writer and entrepreneur interviews me about my work we talked about storytelling creating opportunities and the time about own hijacked my car now here’s my conversation with Jessica hi everyone welcome the great society I’m your host Constance thank yous and I’m here with my friend author and entrepreneur Jessica good hello finally just and I’m so excited I’m really excited about today because Jessica is actually going to be interviewing me a little about my work but first I have some questions for you okay I wanted to start with how we met I was living in Thailand it must have been twenty ten I guess I thank yeah when I was in twenty eleven

I was in my neighborhood fish ponds where they would go fish out running around the fish ponds and I look over and somebody just got out of the car it was a white woman there weren’t very many people in my town who were right for the cause of women what’s happening what’s happening and so I walked over and I met you and it turns out that you were from Austin Texas yes I am my favorite thing about you is that you know everyone that there is to know so we began the conversation with I have this friend you like actually that’s my best friend and pretty much we’ve played that game since then and I have yet to go to a place where I don’t know at least two people who obscurely they never the people that you expect I like all the icons and stick use and I know her well so it’s such a treat to meet you there and then when I moved back to Austin a few months later I think we started working together you were running I’m a social enterprise working with refugees and I kind of showed up to kind of see what I could learn and do and that’s how we started kind of working together yeah I love how you just showed up equals actually you kind of immediately took on a lot of the more challenging aspects of that and became one of those who I think this is one of the things that you and I both share as we value work for the sake of the work sometimes more than the value work for the sake of the money which can be both good and challenging to violence that there were so many opportunities for both of us there especially the time there were a lot of needs and the Burmese community that you and I both and I feel like Nepalese and some others and we just made a lot of deep friendships with refugees and with each other and I think that’s kind of how we got to be such good friends right

yeah I think that was a special time in my life because it’s a transitional time but then also meeting all those people and meeting it just kind of forged that relationship so how did that work lead to you starting that well I guess you’re already doing the social enterprise and then how is that let’s you know becoming an author so in about twenty fifteen the language around refugees changed and I at the time was working I had a postdoc at southwestern university and I just I have a PhD in English and just got concerned about the way that people kept talking about refugees I mean you and I had several and a lot of our friends in this community kept saying when you say refugee and you mean terrorist or you mean threat to our economy you’re not really understanding that the depths of the refugee resettlement processing who’s coming over so long story really short I started writing articles and eventually got a book deal it with a you know at the telling the story of one of our close friends who goes by the pseudonym mo na and it’s the story of one Burmese refugee woman and then I’ve also braided it together with the story of a Syrian woman and then the history of the refugee resettlement program which I love geeking out about Constance’s read a draft of some of it and yeah that’s going to come out it’s called after the last border and it’ll come out in twenty twenty with Viking I’m so excited I meeting originally thanks

and so tell me a little bit about the social enterprise what kind of lead you to this place of kind of being in the refugee community knowing little about refugees how did that get started I was a showed up at a community center hoping to translate for Spanish and was sort of as teaching a class called the rhetoric of legal immigration and was sort of weirdly trolling for people because I wanted to know more about what was actually happening on the ground I lived in Thailand which is why I was there and visiting some friends on your name at and I saw a group of people while I was at this community center that look like they came from northern Thailand and long story really short I. ended up realizing that there are a lot of Burmese refugees here in Austin the Burmese refugee resettlement program is just beginning at the time and there ended up being I think more than seventy thousand Burmese refugees who were resettled in Austin are not in Austin in the United States and that seven year period so it’s just like this huge program and all of these people many of whom were pre literate so over time we ended up starting in English class and then weaving cooperative and then starting a nonprofit helping many of the women specially the older women and the young moms who weren’t able to work and earn supplemental income by a weaving and making jewelry and stuff and then we successfully ended when the last artist and got a job so it was really it was like a bandaid solution and I was with some of you and I talked about is how to have a social a program that’s not just about us feeling good about what we’re doing but that really centers the women whose work and we’re trying to support and I think that’s kind of where we bought it is not everybody’s doing that pressure

yeah okay so this is where it’s really exciting because I get to ask you a lot of questions about you and I feel like that’s a good transition point because I do think that that is one of the big central themes of your life is that you are so conscious of wanting to make sure that people stories are central that you were not ever walking into spaces where there are other people who could speak for themselves that we neither of us both of us have real concerns about the idea of giving a voice to the voiceless there are lots of people to have voices and we want to help amplify an elevate those voices so that others can hear them right and so tell us a little bit about the work that you do what’s your what’s your day job so my day job is I’m the executive director of G. peace peace love and happiness foundation which is John Paul and Eloise DeJoria family foundation based here in Austin so I get to advise the family on charitable investments and kind of tell them things based on their personalities and their interests things that I think they might get excited about investing in in so really it’s just about creating relationship in introducing them because that’s just how how they operate every family foundation I think is different but just introducing them to people that they would love to to hang out with that they would love to invest in and kind of walk alongside the organisation’s hopefully for years and so building those partnerships has been really rewarding and really great

what are some of the partnerships that you can tell us about that you’re about the so hearing here in town we invest in Allen Graham’s mobile lives in fishers community first that’s been a big partnership I’ve had on on the pod ally ally grooms girls impact the world Film Festival a Louise isn’t as an actor and a female and very interested in investing in the voices of young filmmakers and so those are just two here in town that have been really great to get to know the organizations see how that mean they’ve both grown tremendously since we’ve gotten involved in not not just because we’re involved but just because their their efforts to the whole community kind of gathers around so it kind of builds that community into it John flowers are great leaders in that respect and show up in in volunteer and and go to sing so it’s really great part of my life to him what’s the time that you feel like that I’m like what you were able to do change the scope of a project for some people right we give you kind of in this unique position because you’re able to introduce these two people in it yeah they can make an impact yeah I think I mean I was able to introduce the desire is to both of those projects and so I get really excited about that really just because I get to make like I like I’m kind of not a people pleaser really tried to be helpful like to be useful and so they just get something really great out of and then they get to have that relationship and I go to and use them to things that makes them happy makes the organization happy people’s lives hopefully improve as a result of the investment and so it just kind of great all around like nobody gets sad if you call in on a Monday in time you’re gonna be sending them a check so it’s it’s great it’s gonna kind of action balance is the other part of my life which is maybe not quite so hopeful maybe not quite so good news you know you get a car you go to cars a little bit more kind of like my birthday drama and everything else I do a little bit more challenging so so let’s talk a little about that you and I both have careers that are more like veggie plates at Luby’s made up of a variety of side hustles so part of what you do is work for the foundation but you also do several other projects some of which are depressing you’re wonderful yeah talk about this

so I guess since I’ve started working with you in twenty eleven here in Austin with with the refugee community that’s been kind of a weird side hustle it’s just kind of more me making myself available to people in the refugee community that might need help might need an introduction might need to drop me I’m being driven to a hospital or to a government office I’ve enrolled kids in school I’ve help people study for the US citizenship test I would a set by the way you’re totally right and so just kind of things like that like really just they’ve become dear friends I can go to their house for tea or for a meal always they’re always so hospitable to me and so I just kind of you know I’m around if they have a question if they need a resume if they need a job application and such is kind of not really practical stuff that makes me feel really good out what I’ve contributed in so I think that’s important and it keeps you going back and giving and wanting to to kind of carve out time in your day people sat on the part two it just really that feeling of joy and so it’s definitely selfish I think there’s a quote from I think it’s an Australian aboriginal community that’s like your liberation is bound you know don’t don’t come to save me come because your liberation is bound up in mine I butchered that but but that’s really truly how I feel like I’m there because I’m looking for something about myself like I really want to be useful and helpful and make sure that the work being done for people it’s a circle is responsible and sustainable and so if I can come and make sure part of it too is I think just defending I think I take on this role and I I guess maybe I I don’t need to all the time and I just kind of defending them about some just the crappy things about the system we’ve dealt with you and I have expletive landlords with I mean you had a hoax instead of like a pet a file bring a refugee community and so I think sometimes traffickers yeah I just making sure that they don’t they’re not quite as vulnerable when when they arrive or even in the in the ensuing years and that they kind of just know the things that we know that we take for granted about being an American like not letting your kids play outside is that something that families are able to do maybe in a community if they’ve been a lived in a camp in Thailand or something like that but just making them aware of certain things that we kind of take for granted as as Americans are people who grew up here so which is kind of a dumb job because we wish that you could always be just as idealistic as everybody wanted to be on you

okay so talk a little bit about splitting your time between Thailand and taxes because I want you to talk a little bit about the difference between working with refugees who have gone through the resettlement program and have really gotten this like golden take out of being here in the United States versus refugees who are often seeking asylum in Thailand which are really different situations so I moved to I moved back to Thailand I lived in Thailand on and off for a decade now I moved back to Thailand probably twenty fifteen twenty sixteen and I think my original intent was just to kind of see the entire refugee resettlement process I of course thought that I was going to inform everybody in like you guys could be doing this a lot better because when they get here you know there’s some confusion I’m gonna help you sort this out so I went to Thailand kind of started getting involved and and different things and I really I just kind of got going back on my heels by just like how incredibly challenging psychologically spiritually emotionally that processes and so in the process of just kind of helping people I realize in time and in Thailand specifically refugees get detained because they didn’t sign the refugee convention so they don’t agree to give like a like a base level of safety or asylum to people while they’re waiting to see if they get resettled we aren’t just for one second but with the refugee convention is just make sure one nineteen fifty one refugee convention provided that refugees if they had a credible fear oh gosh if I would if I decide

there’s five different things out there she’s gonna show that they’re persecuted and also signing countries have to agreed to recognize these arrive forms of persecution and an improvised them with basic ramen rights and SO Thailand didn’t sign on to that and so if you are a refugee and you’re trying to just exist in Thailand UNHCR has said that you have a credible threat on your life they still choose to put people in detention and so I ended up spending a lot of time visiting people in detention when I was in Thailand to was when the the Muslim ban started here in the states too so I was working with a Somalian woman who’d been in jail and she had her ticket to the state she had her ticket she was leaving that next week and then the ban was in place and so she had to spend another few weeks in jail and I was just heartbreaking I remember sitting on my side of the fence like you’re separated by fences and just kind of crying with her because we didn’t know she was going to be in jail forever for the rest of her life for for the future and fortunately the court halted that and she was able to get out one night pretty quickly they just kind of pushed her through the system but that work is it was really hard I mean it wasn’t I feel like my my work here in Austin with refugees was more kind of like building on something I could probably could basically promised them like if you do this then this will happen if you work hard so me my refugee friends now already like own homes in in Austin and manner are doing really well their kids are doing well their kids are going to school on two university so I pretty much can guarantee what’s going to happen but working with refugees who were awaiting resettlement are who are awaiting refugee status is just a whole nother thing and so I think maybe as part of that I started to seek out other opportunities other jobs because it just kind of got overwhelming just that the mental illness that that that that is exacerbated by that process or the things that happen to people as they wait as they’re unsafe as there are you know trying not to go to jail kids are born without any sort of documentation police you know they pay bribes thing you know they’re just very very vulnerable to to all kinds of different systems

so I started I started kind of focusing a little bit of my time wanting to help but also realizing that I needed help I needed help myself to be able to help people on a need to to have more income to be able to give them what a lot of them really needed was was financial support so I started working with an anti trafficking organization I did a rebrand project for them and kind of do their messaging and stuff I’ve been traveling with a friend and in telling stories for nonprofits all around the world for a long time and so it’s it’s another one of my side hustle so now you know what you’re you’re actually consultant yeah yeah so I’m like a messaging branding and storytelling consultants organizations because I think that’s all born out of this idea that I have had friends were really want to see their stories told really well and I think because of being born in the states and being exposed to so much media and social media about who the other is or who the people are that we’re helping I think I really just kind of wanted to level that playing field and make sure that the people are telling the stories were the people themselves and the organizations that are trying to help the community to make sure that they’re telling messages that are responsible and that are off the call and that really keep the whole person in mind and keep the future of that person in mind because so many times in marketing we kind of free somebody in time or like they’re always vulnerable or they’re always a refugee and I know of a I know a girl who kind of became a poster child for an organization as as a vulnerable student an average student who is almost trafficked and she now is in as a young woman as an adult she says I don’t wanna be that person anymore you know like you kinda use me as that and so I’ve had a lot of examples of friends that even willingly and excitedly would show up to today to shoot a campaign to shoot a marketing I’m paying for it for a nonprofit and then afterwards they really regretted it because they didn’t they didn’t quite forsee how that was going to kind of freeze them in time and they’re most vulnerable moment

yeah and so I kind of try to bring that to bear with to organizations and I do think that people are really open to it like I have a client recently and I think that it’s just when you are trying to get donor dollars when you’re trying to convey a message I think the easiest thing to do is to say this person is needing I’m helping them or you’re helping them to kind of create that imbalance it’s easy for people to understand but I think that’s also just super dangerous because I mean I I know the more I mean I’m I’m not a marketer I think because I think marketing would really want to exacerbate that difference and really want to continue in kind of ticket that and be like you know you’re the hero you’re the savior but so many times that’s just not how it operates and I think to donors and up getting a little bit burned because they were like well you tell me that things were going to change or be different but a lot of times when you’re dealing with extreme poverty when you’re dealing with human rights abuses those are things that you can easily fix with money we need to have patient capital we need to have creative solutions we need to have innovative solutions and and sometimes you can’t just sell that in a system wide campaign that says there any you know you’re you’re better than them are you know your money can save them because that’s not always the case and sometimes a solution is so specific to circumstance right and that’s what I think you I’ve seen you do this with a lot of them I think often we come in with the blunt tools of these tropes of waking the needy people need Assen inside your your helping organizations to really understand the strength of their own situation and how to tell their specific story and how to allow there to be complexity is yeah

is that how how do you do that that seems like such difficult working out incredibly important how do you help organizations do that work who in the beginning it’s really challenging because I think a lot of people at first don’t want to admit that they have done anything wrong we can help you know yeah I’m here to help or to transform like I’m a lot of people are sacrificing people that move overseas and take a job in Thailand for instance or working in a in a camp or doing something like they’ve they’ve really given up a lot but I think it’s kind of more about showing them long term investment me because I’ve been doing this for so long to I can see you know this person might become your neighbor someday this person might become part of your community do you want to be talking about them defining them by their disease status their their financial status there you know exposing their marital problems you know to the world and so I’m kind of in that hybrid space between I’m not a journalist I’m not even a marketer so I’m kind of in this weird space of just trying to make sure that stories are told truthfully and well but also it’s kind of the long term human aspect in mind and so it takes some time with with organizations for sure but I think they start to realize like why don’t we just start to ask our clients our constituents and so more and more all ask a woman if she’s a survivor of trafficking locate like what word how do you want to talk about yourself what word do you feel comfortable with like do you like the word survivor sometimes women feel victimized not no please call me victim has this I want people to know that that’s how he felt and so just kind of letting people define themselves a little bit I think is really important it’s become really important to some of my friends just to call themselves former refugees so instead of me always be like this is my friend disaffected Tina McCarty knowing they don’t that’s not their identity forever right like they just want to get on with her life like they want to take their kids to soccer or her he at least has kind of become some some people want to you know some weight immediately and become an American to be seen as that and be accepted that other people don’t they kind of hold on to their identity from their former country but people get to choose you know and so we think that’s really helped me learn a lot to just about people and how everybody said so different and some people are gonna gonna come in and we don’t want to be in that circumstance want to be defined by that for a long time some people want to get away from it as quickly as they can and I think I’ve had the benefit of choosing how I want to be defined by things right by circumstances and so I it that’s like the least I can do for other people so in eighteen most of them it seems that most of the people that you work with them the organizations that work with like this is what they want to do anyway they kind of get stuck in the right of this is how we’re supposed to do this thing and I think it seems really refreshing from the stories you’ve told me to have someone come in and be like you already know these people you already have these relationships how can we leverage that in order to tell the story in a better way that centers them in the way that they wants to center those people right I’m so can people hire you how does how does that work like what happened yeah so I’m available for hire Wednesday’s for storytelling strategy and philanthropic advising so on my website Constance thank yous and not comment super easy to spell that will have a link in the show notes I’m short home and so yeah but I’m I’m definitely open to working with organizations I love working with creatives and putting stories together that’s what this podcast has been about not so great societies about is me just sitting down with people that I have an affinity for like I really do feel like people focusing on income inequality racial injustice human rights issues like I when I meet when I met you at that date the first one I was like this somebody I have an affinity with and I can talk to and so this whole podcast has been about just getting to spend intentional time with people who are doing that work and it’s kind of celebrating them and learning from them and I have it’s been really good

so I’m gonna embarrass you in make up like real quick but you were one of the most the the most insightful people when it comes to understanding projects on the ground and I think sometimes it’s hard when you say consultant it’s hard for people to really grasp what it is exactly that you do but you and I have produced movies together have films I guess the documentaries we have done photo shoots we have done nonprofit work we have done writing I mean they’re just been like so many random things and which you’re one of the very first people I call and say I really need your expertise and part of that is because you are really got it going and an understanding a system or a village or a group of people and then figuring out a solution that’s very specific to that situation and people aren’t always able to to get that so if there is anyone listening to this who feels like concert this is me saying this bike is your friend but feels like they’re looking for something like that I feel like you you really bring a lot of guests with us that I think you’re often very reticent to share and so I just wanted to make the pike as your friend thank you right so do you have a good one good wacky traveling overseas stories because you have been in so many places I think before I tell the story I think that that’s kind of part of it is I’ve always I’ve moved like eleven times in the last ten years so I’m always kind of on the go and so kind of the disadvantage to that it’s not always been plugged and long term to a community were part of the advantage of that as I’ve gotten to compare so many different projects side by side in Iran to go to South Africa Nicaragua Rwanda Kenya you like all these amazing places so after a while you start to know like this is going to work yeah going to work I believe in this right I really see there’s there’s commonalities between organizations that are really exciting they’re really going to grow and so I think that that’s why I’ve been able to do that it’s just that ability just kind of stuck him up in the next to each other but then also on the road

yes lots of things happen one time my car got hijacked by a monkey about tuning in South Africa that was great my friend and I were on the beach taking pictures and I turn around and I was like Hey you you roll up the windows right he was like what and we turn around and about Boone had jumped in our car it was like just banging around in there in my rental car that I put on my work credit card and I was just horrified and so we took us probably thirty minutes to just bang on things like that the monkey went through my album sorry they’re different went through my bag of my husband’s brand new iPad was like banging on his seat chew my gum eight my approach and I just I don’t know if it’s going to pass out I’m because I’m hoping to go to the ballot don’t know and so in halfway through the worst part was that this literally happened a tour bus of of Chinese tourists came by with a translator in the thing and they all started taking pictures of me trying trying to get the baboon and it started raining so it was just like the most ridiculous viral somewhere yeah yeah they can tryna but it was just the most ridiculous thing ever yeah that’s one of the fun ones I’ve never heard that story yeah that’s a good that’s one of my customers my face for for young people to be able to tell that story and I like to tell it to the youths

yeah to the youth my story about but yeah I mean just so many I don’t know I’m just being on the road a lot so many great things happen so much of it though is just like being an airport to being in airplanes or things not working out or breaking down getting stuck you know so a lot of that stuff is not fun exciting what do you how can you tell that organization is gonna work well I thought that was really interesting what what gives it away I think it’s stuck combination of just you can kind of sense respect like if if the constituents kind of you know like the the person who has the least amount of power in the person of the most amount of power interacting really well they know each other’s names if I get to the field and the boss or the the funder the donor or that whoever is in the field and doesn’t know anybody’s names that’s a huge red flag to me that they don’t actually know the names of the people there trying to help they don’t have relationships and anywhere anytime there’s like a power imbalance interest is exacerbated in the way that the programs are run if people ever kind of have to to grovel for services or if they ever have to jump through any hoops to just prove that they’re human prove they deserve dignity believe or not that happens a lot I mean you see a lot of projects is kind of inherently set up it’s like I’m coming to Cebu I’m coming to to bring you something that you need and that’s just not always I just kind of know from beginning like thank you thank you very much you just kind of back up slowly and you if so yeah but I mean it but also to those who sometimes where you can find the most amount of transformations of the organizations that sometimes by introducing just little or seating little ideas

I’m trying to show them have you ever thought about this very thought about hiring people that maybe we are from this community or speak the language or know this you know and a lot of times I think people just hasn’t can occur to them because we kind of have these really basic fundamental ideas about American charity or American exceptionalism that we carry with us that we don’t even realize and so over the years I think they’ve been humiliated on the road just like you know all these things happen you and you just rely on other people like I’ve been in hospitals in our countries I’ve done other things and people are always so kind and so hospitable to me and so I really seek to do that for people when I can yeah it’s kind how do you find success in your work I’m I think whether or not if I’m in kind of a super wealthy group of people are in a really poor group of people I think the thing that that stands out to me is always just everybody just wants the ability to choose everybody just wants that lake working for the jury family I realize like I know that they’re successful because they wear whatever they want or anything out and that to me is like the dream is just emerging every day for the rest of my life whereas if I’m in a refugee community or from working with a woman all they really want is the ability to choose where their kids go to school sometimes they want to choose a really great car really great TV because that’s going to help them to spend time as a family or to be still safe as a family so I think for me I feel most successful when even though I’m I’m sometimes juggling a lot it’s I feel my successful when I have the ability to choose projects we have the ability to choose to spend time with my family or to go on the road or to go somewhere exciting or fun or new so I think to me success is really just having not having a little bit of control over your life getting to choose what you want to do I think that’s what I’m what I’m looking for and what I want to see for for friends and bench for people that might not have got some kind thanks

thanks for letting me interview thanks so much so I want to ask you how do you define success for you for yourself for your book for your projects for the small businesses that you and your husband are receiving a start how do you define success for yourself I feel I feel like when others are flourishing I am someone who is often aware of them how other people perceive my work and always thinking about everything I come from academia some always thinking about like how the audience received said or is this the most effective way to do that Sir could there be better raises and really at the end of the day I define success by in my telling the stories of the women whose stories I’m telling usually women but often men in a way that they are pleased with the being honored do they feel agency within not did they feel like they’ve had an opportunity to kind of use me as a megaphone to tell the world what’s happening to them and so if other people other people can come out this in whatever way they want to if they at the end of the day have something that feels really congruent with their experiences than not feels like success to me thanks I like that it’s kind of similar to mine and that’s why I like you thank you to my friend exactly but thanks so much for being here today thanks for asking me questions I appreciate it was a nice little change of pace thank you thanks everybody thanks so much to just get over being today’s host her book the last quarter will be out in spring of twenty twenty to see more of my work go to consist I cues in dot com don’t worry we’ll put a link in the show notes the great society team includes me cross institution producer Maria Gossett an audio engineer Jake Wallace thank you to everyone it sounding media for your support if you’re enjoying these conversations please right now leave a review on apple podcasts helps other people to find the show thanks for listening