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What you’ll hear in this episode:

• The path and work of Dr. E William Colglazier, currently the editor-in-chief of Science & Diplomacy with a long career in politics 
• The role that science plays in public policy, international affairs, and diplomacy
• The unique problems – and solutions – that science presents for societies around the world 

Formerly the Executive Officer of the National Academy of Sciences, Science and Technology Advisor to the United States Secretary of State, and co-chair of the Ten Member Group at the UN, Dr. E. William Colglazier has had a long career working at the intersection of science and politics. He’s currently the Editor-In-Chief of Science & Diplomacy, and has profound insights into how science mixes with public policy, diplomacy, and international affairs. 

From helping developing countries advance more quickly, to keeping dialogue open between warring countries, to arms control regarding nuclear development, the scientific community has proven to play a unique role in international liaisons. While every country primarily operates in support of their own national interests, most diplomats in the world see science and technology as very powerful, understanding that it touches every aspect of their lives. As a result, they are usually willing to put aside political differences to engage in topics about science and see what innovations other countries are developing. 

“Even when countries are estranged, the diplomats have recognized that it can be very useful to have the scientific community talking with each other… [this can] help lead to larger breakthroughs on the diplomatic side,” Dr. Colglazier explains. For example, countries that don’t like US politics will often admire our scientific contributions in research and technology, and will be willing to engage with US policy as it relates to science because our nation’s science is so well-respected as a place of innovation. 

While science can be a uniting force, opening doors of communication and creating an optimistic vision of global improvement, it also presents potential negative impacts on society. Social media is a great example of this issue in Dr. Colglazier’s opinion. As a rapidly advancing technology, social media gives a voice to the people in a very direct sense and empowers civilians in societies across the globe. However, Dr. Colglazier explains that scientists did not anticipate the way that authoritarian governments would also be able to harness this technology for their own purposes, citing the “fake news” phenomenon and the ways that social media influenced the 2016 US elections.

Countries are also interested in scientific developments for this reason, concerned with how new technologies might disrupt their society as well as benefit it. Either way, Dr. Colglazier’s hope is that “if all countries utilize more scientific input into their policy making, … it will lead to more rational decision-making.”

Listen to the full episode to hear some specific historical events that benefitted from Dr. Colglazier scientific insights, learn about the phenomenon of a “Digital Anthropocene” coined by the IIASA, and contemplate whether facial recognition and other AI is leaning towards societal improvement or disruption.  

rinaLAB is a founding_media podcast created in partnership with OST Austria.

Host: Dan Dillard

Guest: Dr. E. William Colglazier

Transcript:

welcome back to the real let podcast a show that explores the science and the people behind the research and innovation network Austria also known as arena this week we had the opportunity to speak to doctor William cordless here a fellow Texan he’s originally from San Antonio in a spent a lot of time in DC bring together science and policy in two thousand eleven he was appointed the fourth science and technology adviser to the US secretary of state he has done work on the United Nations development goals on an advisory committee around science technology he’s worked on some of the most important issues of our time in the is an expensive career I’ll let him tell you more here’s our interview with Dr coalition so welcome to our show thank you it’s very nice to be here we were just chatting about all the specialties that you have through your career will we want to give the audience a highlight of what you’ve done with your spell seals

sure I I start out life is a theoretical physicist and that’s All I Want to do when I was growing up and but I was influenced by a number of mentors distinguished scientists about the importance of science related to policy in society the cleaner in the nineteen seventies issue related to how we control nuclear weapons how do we manage environmental challenges how do we deal with the energy crisis and so all after being a research scientist for several years I took a fellowship program that actually work for the US Congress for years so this interface of science and public policy and politics and slowly then switch my career and sort of moved over full time in into that university professor at first and then that going to the National Academy of sciences worm my job is to oversee all the studies that they do on public policy issues like the science and technology then is the science technology adviser to the secretary of state for three years that is a two years as co chair of a committee at the United Nations on the role of science technology and innovation for achieving sustainable development goals and that and now in my post career being editor of a little online journal called science of diplomacy nynex the the intersection of science in the policy on relieving given much thought until we started chatting about how important that is and I imagine that you were reasons and to to make the shift in your career was to have impact is that what was the nearby

I think so that I think a lot of scientists of my generation wanted to lease for thinking about how can they use their expertise to make the world a better place to help people not only in their own country but also around the world so the issues connected first of all for me it was with the arms control nuclear weapons but then it quickly evolved into the broad sweep of issues including how to help countries in the developing world to it to grow faster how to use science technology tool the Clinton countries and may be a strain for the governments don’t get along so I’ve been involved with a number of countries were science was a very useful tool for keeping dialogue open between between countries never my mentors are heavily involved in discussions with Soviet scientists in the period which turned out whenever a windows of opportunity diplomatically they had a big impact on policies between the US and the Soviet Union then at that time so I became very much engaged with this whole issue of how science technology can be a very useful tool for influencing moving diplomats policy makers and what we thought was the right direction to deal with some of these big challenges around the world in the in the master Cleese so so most of my career has been at that interface of science and either public policy or international affairs and diplomacy that’s really interesting

I would imagine that there’s a lot of challenges and and dealing with the last of the various countries serving at the U. and and the state of the former state just because the decisions and the science you bring to the table is not always received well he talked about the element sugar and it takes side to side this program of bringing young sides get experience working in government than what I had with the US Congress back in the nineteen seventies but now it’s a very large program including a number of young as well as mid career finds he professes to go in the state department and they really learn what it’s like to but diplomats half to have to deal with in the chorus diplomats and other countries in every country they come you know with what their government is told him you know to press for their own national interests but but on the positive side when I found with engaging with many countries in science and technology right now particularly coming from the US anywhere in the country is not like our politics they admire our science and technology our universities are big guy hi tech companies us every country I dealt with the first topic they always want to talk about was how could they upgrade the their own societies capabilities to be able to be competitive to be successful to be innovative to ensure prosperity and security of their country

and they were looking at the model of the US so that actually I found engaging on science technology week with other countries a very useful tool for influencing their behavior their actions even how they spend their own money sometimes because they were looking at they want to engage with the U. S. even if they didn’t agree with with a government policies but yes you’re absolutely right that the countries are trying to do things for their own national interests that’s what the policy is all about trying to convince the of the other guy that at the do what you want them to do so that’s always going to be uppermost but I think most dip diplomats in the world now it recognizes science technology very powerful that the almost every issue they deal with their some acts that were scientific information technological summation is highly relevant they have to increase the capability of their own foreign ministry for example to deal with these issues they have to see what other countries are doing so it’s a they’re all quite willing now to engage in to talk about issues with it really in some cases come from science technology the the other thing that they’re very much concerned with right now is that the they see that these new technologies whether it’s artificial intelligence robotics gene editing can actually create opportunities for societies

but they can also create great disruption and so they’re worried about how they deal with these rapidly changing technologies which may affect their society that such interesting to think that science is this language across the world that unites people unites different countries with a a vision of improvement and opens doors of communication dial you when there’s disagreements in all techs and whatnot we talk everything from nuclear arms to social media and we were discussing where you know Klay arms there was a there’s a Los signs to try to make sure that that was never used again you talk a little bit about you know what that look like sure and the the the nineteen eighties some of the other senior scientist that that I work with were heavily involved in dialogues with the Soviet scientists on up to to a nuclear weapons how do we sure that the for one there’s not an accident or something it’s misinterpreted with another party we got very close to that with the Cuban Missile Crisis out of the prevent those sort of things have a way and try to reduce the the threat that other countries perceive from our weapons and and and vice versa as well as controlling incidents so the dialogue that the the US and Soviet scientists and they were what you call track to outside of government dialogues but when which office in power and the so union turned out his ski science advisers were the same Soviet scientists Americans were working with so they had to all the things that were on the track to dialogue the discussions the issues to possible solutions I had a big influence them

on the policy side when there is this window of opportunity in terms of changes occurring in the leadership of the of the of the two countries I was also involved in the conversation relations after bring home safely some two in the US and China actually it’s going to be the green at the the scientific agreement in the two countries is nineteen seventy nine sorry of the fortieth anniversary next year we had I was that the US National Academy of sciences we had a office in Beijing to help facilitate science and technology and engagement between the US and in in Chinese scientists or had a then we trained a lot of the the Chinese scientists in our leading the effort in China I was heavily involved it with that from two thousand until relatively recently between the US and Ron were both countries even relations were so bad that they encourage their scientific communities in both countries to to engage and so we had three or four workshops a year not dealing with nuclear issues in those days but dealing with public health issues dealing with environmental issues protection from earthquakes with the US and Cuba when I was in that the state department my deputy he was very talented American from Porta Rico background spoke fluent Spanish we were next to the Cuba desk inside the state department

so she was heavily involved in what became them they they’re bombing ministration the remote realization that range from Swiss Cuba for a lot of scientific exchanges of recurring before that it where I am at the triple A. S. right now they even have been some science engagement with North Korea dealing with a volcano that’s in the north Korean border with that with China outfitting it lists seismometers so is there even one countries may be terribly estranged even the diplomats have recognized that it can be very useful to have the scientific community at least talking with each other that that window of of engagement can actually perhaps a helped lead to the larger breakthroughs on the on the diplomatic side what’s unfortunate I mean for me right now clearly politics is a more powerful force in science at least in the in the short run so in the case with the U. S. and Ron I’m a big supporter of the Iran nuclear agreement and now with the US government backing out of it it’s almost ended this backchannel cited the communication between the US and Iran and I think that was a really is a serious mistake so these things that can be reversals same thing with the current US administration with the the parasite climate accord the US also backing out of that I think the so I I think these things will most actually go back at least I hope that’s the case but it shows you that the politics can have a big impact even with the the best efforts of the scientific community to help advance things that doesn’t necessarily guarantee that’s the outcome

more recently being involved heavily with several scientific knowledge innovation for the sustainable development goals may not be on the radar screen of the US government but many countries around the world are heavily involved is trying to figure out how they can use science technology really to accomplish their national holler national goals could be described in some sense within this broad sweep of the sustainable development goals and so trying to help countries around the world to use their own scientific committee that technological community engage with the advanced countries around the world if all countries in my view if they utilize more side to even put into their policy making hopefully lead to more rational decisions that can guarantee it but that’s as you know we were talking about how there’s gotta be frustrations between the science and and wind adolescent and policy makers make decisions because of not always based on science it’s the rest of the other things factors the going to consider so I can see where they can get frustrating at times for sure but the same time it’s there’s a lot of positive in having that connection across the world with various countries

somewhat social media because I thought that was really interesting we’re channel earlier about you know the impacts of social media and what that’s done for the community in the world yeah yeah well when I was in the the the state department I was involved with the US intelligence agencies bird I was cracks kind of press to their efforts to try to anticipate what were some of the implications of thought a rapidly developing a technology and social media website was one of them trying to see how it would affect foreign relations government policy societies around the the world the I guess my conclusion though now looking back what’s happened more recently thickly with the use of fake news and pretend accounts on Facebook and elsewhere to try to influence the the US election that we we really didn’t do a very good job anticipating house social media could be used for what Mike same various purposes so little bit caught flat footed and trying to to see what what was coming so it shows you that the even the best intelligence ages best diplomats the best scientists remote always can see exactly how things are going to on line particularly when you have these new developments seem right double edged sword as we were talking earlier because you have that but then you also have the connectivity of the world and so when politicians in various countries don’t listen to science or whatnot of the world knows

and so that can cause pressure for more communication yeah I know absolutely in fact I think and I was one of those who felt that you know the combination of the of the internet and social media giving a voice to people around the world I was going to put pressure perfectly on our third during governments but did not it is a distemper which Arthur and governments could actually use that same technology for control I mean you see that right now in places like China where they’re using facial recognition you know to keep track of people but I think it is I think the scientific community has a real responsibility to help policy makers proclaim a democratic countries understand how they can maximize the opportunities from these new technologies but also to think very carefully about what are the challenges that we have to find ways to deal with to defend against if necessary so I I think that’s a major challenge not only for the science community but for the diplomatic and political community I’m I was a that that group this this is talking a little bit about that Austria I’ve been involved with I think a very good organization in Austria call international institute for applied systems analysis yasa which is in Vienna it was actually created in the nineteen seventies as a way for you for US and Soviet scientists the west and the east not only US but also European to engage in work on on major issues together now it’s evolved into it’s got many other countries that belong to it its focus is really on on on systems analysis is a tool looking at all kinds of issues environmental economic social demography and so on and a lot of very good people and they bring young scholars there in anyway the E. asa it is led an effort to include a lot of international scientists to do

it just came out this past summer with I think a very good report called the world in twenty fifty so it’s sort of looking at what are the the big issues the world has to deal with optically related to having a more sustainable world on on all the social economic environmental aspects but what are the major transformations that have to occur to enable us to sort of a chart the course we’re going to be successful and they laid out six but one of them is the they label is that the digital technologies and they put a again look I think was broader than just digital all of the real revolution is occurring the biological sciences and elsewhere but they but they called it the digital anthropocene after pressing this summer this come up you know we have these different geologic apps epics of the world and now the anthropocene is supposed to be the epic where everything is dominated by human beings they’re really control it a whole lot of the whole planet and them in this report the asa let coined the term the digital after for saying that if you think the act was seen as really significant weight to you combine it with all of these new capabilities are now coming from a digital technologies yeah leads me back to what you said earlier about this facial recognition in China where your thoughts on that do you have any

well that I mean obviously China is exploiting artificial intelligence and these technologies as a way to controls society so I think democratic countries the world have to that’s a major issue that we have to think about and and and to deal with I was just involved in meetings and in Japan and what I was advocating there was that call me advance maritime democracies in Indo Pacific region that includes Japan the United States Australia New Zealand India China’s made these plans were they want to dominate the high tech industries of the future they have a lot of smart people are putting massive investments in science technology I was advocating that the our time democracy is the country’s identically that I mentioned we have to to move faster in terms of science technology innovation and to show the Chinese that the more open bottom up hi innovative ecosystems and our country’s can move faster than they are far tarian top down approach you know I have I have a number of friends who were very good scientists in China many educated in the United States after the opening and right now they can’t speak freely in China but when they can when they think no one can listen to them when they’re outside of China they’re really worried that they really view the U. S. as the main ball work that was helping move China to words with some kind of call liberal rules based international order and then the same with you know the recent political developments in the US and occurring and Europe select that plus the fact that the the China recently as turn more authoritarian and were controlling the there there were a distressed by that I don’t know what they can do about it and the fact that the government is going to use all of these technologies essentially the way to control society I think is a significant challenge yeah really really sick so for listeners out there that are you know thinking about careers and and potentially really answered the science and also politics of what’s what’s your recommendation as far as how to follow a path similar to yours

yeah in in I’m I meet with a lot of students graduate students undergraduate students at universities optically when I’m talking about the role of science technology for the sustainable development goals and then that’s when young people are very idealistic in many cases and they get very excited about this trying to think how can they use their expertise you know to know advance this sort of agenda like make the world a better place so there’s a great interest by not only young scientists but from different engineering from us social sciences humanities and trying to think about okay how can I use my expertise also to the to advance these broad societal goals one the suites are the one planet kind of a kind of ideas this so this I mention of fellowship program at the American Association advancement of science has for giving this two year fellowship experience for young scientists to experience what it’s like working in the government and US state department the foreign ministry said a number of other countries are trying to create similar programs out like that so I think there’s a tremendous appetite for young people to central see if they can do two things at the same time both be very good in depth in whatever field they chose to do but at the same time spent some of their energies and trying to do these broader societal things

and so I think their ways to do that you can in my case I sort of went from one side I’m I so move totally my career and straight science in to this interface science and policy I think the number very good scientists who stayed deeply rooted in science but they spend part of their time like some of the mentors that I had working on issues like arms control with the Russian and Soviet scientists now there are a number of countries their foreign ministers have created science advisers to their foreign minister so that sort of ideas is catching on to so I think there are a lot of opportunities for scientists whether they’re deeply rooted as academics are in scientific research but also to have make contributions in this other area and it’s also I think a good place that I mentioned for this fellowship program a number the scientists have essentially switch their careers they be the continued working in the US government of the content to non governmental organizations in Washington and elsewhere that really focus on the science policy interface so vastly I find it fascinating that at the end of the day you just follow your heart whatever your heart was is like a really was intrigued in science but then I also wanted to impact the world

and I think that’s the message that we definitely want to tell people authors to whatever you decide to do follow your heart and and it’ll all work out at the end of the day I really thank you for the conversation and I I know there’s so many things you’ve done throughout your career that has impacted us as a as a society known a thank you for that as well thanks for being with us thank you doctor co Mr has brought science to the forefront of policies and made it a priority I love his advice that you can bring together your passions to make this world a better place thank you bill for all your work and the impact you’re making on our planet the real that podcast team includes medium Dillard producer Mariah gossip and audio engineer Jake Wallace special thanks to robin Tim vice and the amazing team at research and innovation network Austria the renewal at podcast is available on Spotify iTunes and all other major podcast platforms maybe sure this episode with the science fan in your life this week we would appreciate it listening and we’ll be back next week