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What you’ll hear in this episode:

• What FICINT is and why August Cole is interested
• How A.I. and robotics are shaping our future
• The potential individual, human impact of shifting to robotic and software solutions in the defense industry

Co-Host and Defense Innovation Unit Texas lead Zach Walker said it best, “Future technology is really not as far away as it may seem.” That’s exactly what national security expert and author August Cole explores in his novels. Cole is co-author of the futuristic warfare best-seller Ghost Fleet: A Novel of the Next World War and, most recently, Burn-In: A Novel of the Real Robotic Revolution which was released on May 26, 2020. The book follows FBI Special Agent Lara Keegan and her new partner, an advanced police robot, shows how the robotic revolution is already here. What’s most impressive and perhaps intimidating about Burn-In is that all the technology featured in the novel either already exists or is in development. Cole started his career as a journalist covering national security and defense industries for publications like marketwatch.com and The Wall Street Journal. Now, in addition to writing futuristic war novels, he writes, speaks and consults on futures with government and private sector.

“I think one of the really interesting aspects of our future with A.I. and robots is that in many ways it’s already here,” Cole tells hosts Dan Dillard and Zach Walker. “The current pandemic that we’re trying to cope with has ushered in technological changes in terms of adopting remote work practices, increasing automation in supply chain distribution, having us really start to assess how much we need to know about one another in our society and what role A.I. can play in that.”

Listen to the first episode of From Tanks to Teleportation, to hear more about the robotic revolution that is already happening and its effect on the defense industry and how the U.S. needs to start preparing now for the individual, human impact of shifting to robotic and software solutions in the defense industry. If you like what you hear, leave us a review and share the show with a friend!

From Tanks to Teleportation is a founding_media podcast created in partnership with the Department of Defense and the Defense Innovation Unit.

Hosts: Dan Dillard, founding_media

Zach Walker, Defense Innovation Unit

Guest: August Cole, author of futuristic warfare best-sellers Ghost Fleet and Burn-In

I think one of the really interesting aspects of our future with A.I. and robots is that in many ways it’s already here.

Transcript:

This is a founding media podcast if the defense innovation from tanks to teleportation the new show where we explore the intersection of technology business and national security with the defense innovation unit part of the U. S. department of defense and key partners in this effort to grow the nation’s innovation thanks I’m your host the M. Dillard today on our first episode we’re joined as always by my co-host Zach Walker the D. I. U. Texas lead and national security expert this call okay started his career as a journalist writing about the economy and defense industries for publications like marketwatch dot com in the Wall Street journal now he’s retired from journalism instances time exploring futuristic warfare through storytelling he is co author of bestseller ghostly the novel of next World War and most recently earning a novel of real robotic revolution he’s here to help us understand how the department of defense is preparing for the future and why would it decides not to do is just as important as what they do here are sacked in August tell us more it’s great to see you again in August thank you so much for being on the show thanks for having me on isn’t really excited to be introduced to your work I am a geek when it comes to future techno wheels so I’ve been looking forward to this chat could you share with us how you got started down this path is an author of where you focused on future work for through storytelling one of the things that I’ve come to appreciate I think in the past decade is what you don’t do is as important as what you do do and I left the Wall Street journal literally ten years ago this spring to try to figure out how to not write about what had just happened to what was going to be happening my initial career in journalism was at marketwatch dot com and the dot com boom and throughout the crash and after covering the economy coming little to the defense and aerospace industries but also seeing up close what it’s like to be part of a disruptive company that’s trying to take a very institutionalized sector like news business and opened it but also seeing the failures you know the aspirations a lot of the the ways that people thought the future is going to pan out more investing accordingly had nothing to do with the reality of actual  technological implementation in the real world so I ended up working at the Wall Street journal  at the  in kind of the two thousand seven  time frame and the cover the defense industry which was a great perch to start to get my teeth into context of  say cyber security is Manderson at then looking at a lot of the the bigger weapons programs from  from affordability perspective and just doing the the work of a reporter and it’s really interesting because the role that fiction played in that phase of my writing career was fairly minimal I read for fun occasionally but I think I had like a lot of people in the national security community a sense that something like fiction wasn’t gonna help me do my job better and when I when I left that to actually write a fictional story about five military contractors  which is a is a part of the defense sector that like this stuff you hear about you just can’t make up and I thought without actually really interesting you know  kind of fodder for for a for narratives or novel and and I started to get myself more permission after I quit to rejection and taken to rediscover science fiction particularly in and as I did so it’s hard to see how some of the further developments and  you know all kinds of cyber and the effects it was having starting to see some of the ways that warfare itself was changing and and allowing me to try to start to look at had to what would be happening next that that really I think culminated in ghost fleet in two thousand fifteen which was the story of how the US ends up in a global war with with China and Russia in the thing about about that is that was a book I wrote with my burning car writer Peter singer who is a great collaborator far smarter than me and just the kind of person you want to team up with and and has a real nose for a story in what we both believed was just in the same way Tom Clancy’s red storm rising eighty six I think really shaped the perceptions of what technology could do and and not do in the context of a third World War you know it’s going to really thought the unthinkable imagine this this global conflict we wanted to do that with go sleep but spin it forward you start to take a lot of the baseline assumptions about technology today and apply them in a future context where we felt there was not enough attention being paid to really course options like well the Chinese military be technologically advanced in late twenty twenties are we too reliant on very expensive platforms not focusing enough on software similar capability and we’re our blind spots that’s an ethos is behind our latest book Burnin which is domestic story it’s an FBI agent is hunting for a terrorist to trying to use technology sentry to turn the country against itself but the twist is this this this agent his team with a robot and her background as a marine as robot wrangler in the future world that we’ve built get server utilitarian looking technology and so it’s a great window with which to look at how AI and robotics are gonna start transforming not just these questions of national security all the facets of society that we often overlook but really do need to understand the defense community I guess it’s really wonderful to have you on the show we really appreciate it and when we discuss kicking us off we named it trump takes the teleportation the idea behind that is future technology is really this may sound crazy but it’s really not as far away as it as it may seem and that’s what I love about your books and with specifically  yes since  commercial technology can be so much more advanced than what the duty is currently using right that’s something that we’ve had people tell us that they think we’re from the future simply because we can bring in technology that even though it’s today’s technology it’s just such a step change from what’s currently being done and that’s what I really love about your writing  brings a futurist you can take that technology that we have today or in the very near term and really making something that’s that’s very real I am curious if you could talk a bit more about that intersection of national security and near term technology one of the ways to to think about technology trickle in this in this context of the future of conflict or this the future of the security environment it is to start unpacking what’s possible and what’s not and and the narratives that we built in in these two books I’ve always used to a role which has been pretty simple but it’s important I think to have some grounding in technological reality particularly for gonna stretch the bounds of your boat believe ability when it comes to concepts of operations or or other  other kind of more more you know applied aspects of how you use that stuff so the cardinal rules and and looks like burning ghosts we are the all the technology has to be real and it would have been very interesting to have had for example you know a campaign like we envisioned at the end closely with teleporting tanks to use your your  tagline but it would have made the the book I think is in fact for useful  and certainly not to say that you can’t write a great story that that has  kind of physics bending and and really fantastical uses of of tech to personally wrote today but in the context of this useful fiction war the the label I’ve been giving it fit can’t which is rough on the you know human intelligence or signals intelligence SIGINT HUMINT the idea that you can create something fictional haven’t be applicables in the real world for those national security community were trying to unpack the role of technology at the same time you know it when I when I think about the different ways that technology is gonna ship conflict and also what what the US military and intelligence committees are gonna be investing in it is easy to see why and are a backward looking by sees you know cause us to commit large amounts of money you know two ways of thinking about the future war they don’t track with the trends that that I see out there and I wouldn’t say that I have a perfect vision of the future whether anyone person even to us but I do believe it’s important to start really tangibly building those features to understand whether the priorities we have set today are actually going to do us any good in the future  you know the the value today for example of data and information that can be aggregated collated and used for everything from targeting to shipping operations it’s only going to grow that’s not to say that there isn’t going to be a place for you know platforms that are that are traditionally the domain  purview of service like the airforce or the army but the software that country is making those platforms relevant on on the battlefield will be far more important than ever has been and and your point about the commercial sector yes it is that an artificial intelligence demand particularly in robotics you know by extension that the leading edge of innovation is sourced from nontraditional suppliers you know how the government understands its ability to prioritize how it understands its ability to acquire those systems in a way that actually is is useful and at scale because you know you can say something like old masters and matter anymore you know we can do things virtually on cyber warfare but none the less the Audi enterprise if you will in the national security you know establishment U. S. is so big that we do have to be able to take a good idea and populated throughout very large communities and though it is I think great to see success in small corners of that and highly impactful corners of the national security establishment Michael so special operations command what were also trying to figure out is how does that apply to I think big army how to sort of stop lying to the airforce in terms of being able to take for example  useful algorithm that helps you sift through information or finding a way to have systems communicate to one another they can’t ordinarily doing that not with hardware but with new software breakthroughs or what can be offloaded onto him cognitively speaking on two machines so that we can keep up with this very very fast paced development of of ideas that’s that’s gonna be shaping the future of conflict it’s really cool you just launched your machines lost a book burning congratulations first of all  to my first my copy yesterday and about a quarter way through already and really enjoyed that and as you mentioned as a teaser there’s an FBI special agent the teams up with the police robot to track down terrorists what appeals to me the most is that in this ability to choose the expert research that’s done with the blends of science fiction and fact so based on this research I’m curious about your thoughts on the future when it comes to A. I. and robots were the coolest things that we’ll see the next five or ten years I think one of the really interesting aspects of our future with with A. I. and and robots is that it’s in many ways already here you know the recent  endemic to will the current pandemic there were there were you know trying to cope with as I should in technological changes in terms of adopting remote work practices increasing automation and supply chain distribution having us really start to assess you know how much we need to know about one another in our society and what role a I can can can plan that you know contact tracing for example those are three massive trends that if you start to then follow those little rabbit holes if you well into certain areas like with a telemedicine telemedicine is gone for very practical reasons through the roof in terms of adoption and and up and and usage because that’s the exigency of the situation that we’re in the people in that field are looking at this and and realizing that what they had forecast in terms of  you know practices and large hospitals doing us would have to contend fifteen years were there already education is another example you know large university small universities and public school systems my kids own elementary and and and high schools are wrestling with the role that the teacher and the physical place for example has in the the kind of technological relationship between student and faculty and and  in the larger educational community you know in America or in in most you know western societies that’s a really really like foundational part of any community so when technology is starting to affect and impact those relationships  and forcing us to reimagine what they’re going to be like I think one of the really big big challenges about this future with and robotics is being able to allow us to use our imagination so that we are able to have some agency and how these things of all so we can start to have a choice in terms of determining how much is too much in terms of automation or what we’ll do we really want machines to play or not what is certain I think is important and potentially exciting is the partnership the concert to develop between us as individual is Ross collectively and the the software algorithms and and machines that are there going to be increasingly part of everything from you know factory work to you know personal transportation an example would be you know I would really be interested in trying to work with an algorithm that can help synthesizing create  the sorts of stories that I like to write because I would be fasting writing partner if you will to have nothing I wanna replace Pete with the software but the idea that you know you could be more productive or you might be able to see your work in a new light or what if I was able to do visualisations of my written work by working with the machine learning a neural net part  that really changed the very nature of how I express my ideas and and creatively and I I realize that such as a subset of of of society  you know the economy in the in the in the very very narrow world that I’ve yet but that is I think just one example what I do but I don’t want is to have a world in which we haven’t asked really fundamental questions about the kinds of roles that we want machines to play the release the release elemental notion of what it means to work and have a productive life in America I think it’s certainly going to be one of the big abiding questions that we have to start wrestling with when software starts to allow the possibility of replacing not just the manufacturing jobs which have been typically that those that are discussed as being vulnerable to automation but work throughout the economy so a lawyer or a teacher a physician all have the potential to Cleese synthetic personalities are are starting to develop you know deepfakes today of the nefarious version but there is an upside to that to that technology which is this kind of idea of a synthetic you know imagine Surrey were more real than the just voice source or looking at this new era that we’re about to enter in that has profound implications of course for the national security environment you know our our all volunteer force draws from our civilian society the technology is accent comes from in many cases institutions that are not formally government once increasingly at arm’s length from the government so being able to extend connective tissue if you will between all those different entities and understand how it’s going to fit together not in a silo way not just thinking discreetly about what is the future of misinformation or what is the future of the autonomous tank or how are we going to crew no surface vessels in the twenty thirties realizing that all these are wrapped up in very similar fundamental questions so I think we have to start by really understanding are we asking the right questions and we have a way to even begin to impact really cool and a big part of the two is having that imagination that you mentioned earlier as you said with the pandemic we’ve seen things happen that people don’t even realize what’s possible but then also that we’ve had to do it we had to go online and now we we rolled into existence which is not not unlike what we’re trying to do and the defense innovation unit explicitly for the DOD are using that imagination trying to tell the story make sure they were asking the right questions a lot of that is what you refer to as second section intelligence which I appreciate the on on intelligence but it really is a potential for I’m a completely different source of information and knowledge and and synthesis yes if you could speak a bit more about how you came up with this idea of sick and maybe some things that you’ve done across the department of defense to help us get a better handle on some of these problems that we’re addressing trying to explain whether anything I do has any impact at all is always a big challenge and so one of the the ways that I I I figured I might be able to do that was by coming up with an acronym because I know the currency of acronyms in DC is of course incredibly important  and there’s little bit tongue in cheek that initially came up with this vacant notion but it’s actually coming great shorthand for describing the kinds of useful fiction that is rooted in reality in the follows almost like a certain set of rules you know if I were to say what Mexican and what doesn’t some of the attributes and I think people can debate this that’s fine to come up with their own variations on it but as I see it I would like to think that something that fits into that second category follows for example a rule that the technologies are real or are in development as as we’ve done in our books that people act in ways that are much like how we act in our normal world that just being transported into the future doesn’t necessarily change the very human elements and aspects to our relationships one another we’re still afraid there are still jealous others still bureaucracy in the future you know those sorts of unspoken truths I think at the human level are important and then and then the other rule too is that you know when you’re thinking about the way you want the world to work being able to first order level understand that that probably isn’t actually how it’s going to happen and and knowing that the fog of war that there are still mechanical breakdowns in the future the batteries need to be charged that a lot of these elements and annoyances really and and today’s  today’s civilian lives but also in the end you know military operations are going to be isn’t in the future you know there’s some some great comics that  strips are written by doctor man he does secure call comics about about military life and some of his future or in one’s really interesting because you’re still burn pits essentially like the year you know three thousand  in one of his trips and I think that’s sort of a of a of a the humor is actually so cutting and so true important as we start to try to conceive of our technology as way of war we’re aware that even invites more use of robotics and autonomous systems and and whatever form whether they’re small swarms are large  you know vessels that go to see with with  you know Thomas systems aboard the miss mother ships nonetheless there are gonna be these truisms that you can look back through and I think use fiction to help touch touch base with me reading history is also incredibly useful to understand what’s going to happen in the future you know if you want to understand I think the future special operations in Europe reading a lot about the development of British special operations were war to which is a fairly rambunctious effort and not very bureaucratically sanctioned is great fodder in terms of how the special boat service and special air service involved at that time for example so so there is a lot of connections there are a lot of connections you can make I think intellectually that allow you to see those worlds though through narrative right through character driven tales that allow us to connect with with people who live in these worlds when they seeing what they’re smelling when they’re touching what makes them scared but excited about and and that to me allows a much more emotional human connection through storytelling which is such a great technology is sold it so effective and in many ways it’s a better way to approach than than you know the the power point which is I think like thirty years old this year or something so you know there there there are these other aspects that to the way we communicate today that I think we really do have to pause and ask you know not that I would say everyone should should you know such analyzing and read and write only fiction it’s one tool among many clear but are there better ways to communicate these ideas to come when there are disruptive don’t fit into the deep into the world as it actually is not as we want to be in touching on storytelling how’s your research and your storytelling change the way you look at the world I think that’s a record it’s a great question and I’m you know an inveterate researcher and I love trying to you know come up with as much confidence I’m sure footing  that I can find when I’m trying to conceive of an idea or a fictional world and so being able to be very transparent about that with the reader something that we really experimented with a ghostly we start out writing the novel you know we had a hundred pages of notes and concepts and ideas and and white papers and  you know links white papers cetera what we realize though was as we got to the end of the book was that because we are asking people to kind of bite off a pretty big assumption in that story we wanted to share the underpinnings fart for the confidence and and that we had in portraying the scenario you get this fantastic because it was so you know we we at the end of the editing process but the thirty and notes in there and it you know to give like a writers or editors perspective on this you know that’s a significant thing because every page in a book has to count you know the the weight of a book the size of a book all go into the larger publishing economic decision so if you’re saying I want twenty seven pages I can burn in for inotes that’s there twenty seven pages lots of narrative are you sure your story is going to be okay now without that extra bit of pages and it also again is that kind of fundamental question just because the manufacturing paper park earning though after we saw the credibility that that helped give go sweet we knew from the start that we were gonna have an notes and we think that is a really effective way to communicate but also be able to establish credibility especially for people who aren’t aren’t using fiction at work or even reading fiction of all of which are a great many folks you just simply don’t don’t make time for that and that’s understandable too but our hope is that we can kind of bridge bridge between those communities so that the amount of research they know that what I do is it’s on the open source world it ranges from you know gold fashion googling but but much of it is also trying to talk to people and understand not even a discreet technical capability but really cultural or arms for human questions you know how would you feel if you had to hop out of your car not a robot beside you would you what point would you really trust it or not it was going to do the right thing or the wrong thing you know being able to draw on my own experiences for example and and try to imagine what parenting might be like in the total information society that we we describe and burn it now how would I be able to conceive of that in a way that felt credible and would allow people to connect with  with a character that has a primary role to store you know this case does actually hunt somebody down but is a real person and and trying to show that so that we get people to see that the future isn’t just about solving their discrete problem or they’re they’re you know issue of the day the rather there are going to be a panic you know a panoply of of priorities that different people have been making them all feel real important not that not authenticity I think comes from trying to understand the role that technology plays in that relationship and that’s a big thing for us as well so when we do research on a project it’s oftentimes going out to commercial industry because they’ve oftentimes solve these problems that we have in the DOD ends doing the same thing it’s it’s talking about how the problem was solved getting those user stories and going back in the D. O. D. where these people colleagues you might think it’s crazy right again I said we were told sometimes you they think we’re from the future being able to share the stories of all of this is how it’s happening in an industry these are some of the things that could happen in DOD and just really making that connection also they can they can visualize it and then get support that way it’s a tremendously useful arch more so than than anything else and in that vein you mentioned something on Twitter that I thought was really interesting you talked about this a few days ago really badly or Mr yet and we’re not going to flash any any tweets on screen to surprise you but now it’s about the future work right it’s about the pandemic can come in nineteen and and everything else and and you mentioned that you think this pandemic will speed that up right and that’s something that I is really interesting concept because as we mentioned earlier the technologies here it’s just a matter of how we’re using it and I’m curious if you could speak to how that accelerates the future the William Gibson quote gives ending the science fiction writer who  in the eighties really coined the cyber punk recalling the term cyberspace and and birth the cyberpunk genre was like restore sterling and others about seventeen eighteen years ago said you know the future is here it’s just not evenly distributed and I feel like that every single day today when I am especially using social media to kind of ascertained you know these little like almost people’s into other realities missing narratives developed you know when that comes both visual sense but also almost like a swarming like nature of of of of of algorithmic driven social media you know what we’re we’re certainly at this point where these trends that have to do with remote work remote learning being forced to I think adopt technologies and ways of working that in fact allow us to prevail we know we don’t have to be in the studio together right now right we can do this and we all adapt quite quickly to it which is a marvelous thing but yet we’re also potentially laying the groundwork for permanent chefs you know if if half of working Americans are effectively out of works like forty million right now you know that that is not too dissimilar to some of the estimates that come from groups ranging from you know the Oxford study in two thousand thirteen and eighteen on on unemployment from automation KPMG others all kind of  in that forty to fifty percent of vulnerable American jobs to automation estimate so trying to conceive of a society in which those who are working right now never went back to work and and there is a real risk that many of the the positions that were there pretty current of ours are coming back to me on the converse you follow maybe I’m more sensitive to this because my background is business journalist but I’m acutely aware of what that implies and and also you know to see that from the other side which is how we look what we are right now society to to deal with that really kind of addresses fundamental questions about how do we remain be I should say even just a resilient society if if we are you know going off into the twenty twenties and twenty thirties as committing to national defense strategy you know that is going to envision great power conflict as a possibility prepare for it it seems equally important that we have to understand where the vulnerable  fault lines at home and how do we create a society that can weather the sorts of attacks that may be declared or undeclared by an adversary that great power context whether it’s sweeping cyber vulnerabilities whether it’s health care system that isn’t coping with  with an unexpected you know S. store to be fair pandemic in leadership on the in the end government set at many levels that that are not necessarily sat on a think trying to use this as a as a way to come together and rather than than keep people apart for kind of for tactical political gains I see that in my future son sitting very troubling and yet especially so when this exploration technologies pulled forward you know there’s also demand signal right to right now too and robotics and autonomy because factories and distribution centers have a real imperative to increase their or their mechanical automation right now because you know robot doesn’t get sick yes I know it can break down and you know it’s honorable mention hacking etcetera but the paradigm and in most commercial businesses that are in that sector right now is really is really trying to resolve how do you ensure the next time there’s a pandemic or something or some other disruption that you can keep your supply lines open your facilities moving along we may see reshoring right you know companies that are that are not confident in China’s ability to sustainably manufacture in whatever comes next in terms of corona virus or another situation may bring plants back to the US but those plans will also be heavily automated they will not be like the plants the politicians promised you know twenty years ago or ten years ago even so we’re at this point where we’re starting to see you know increasing capability of of mechanical kind of robotics industrial sense we have every day I all around us you know it’s helping run everything from you know calls like this to managing our social media networks and and schooling us up and not really calming us down very much you know so we’re so we’re we’re also trying to come to grips with that too and and really slow things down so that we feel like you know what I can figure this out I can handle that I don’t think there’s too many people right now that are in that state of mind of course because of a pandemic but those forces though that aren’t aren’t working business that are that are at work in the national security round two after clearly trying to wrestle some of the same questions you know a nation that has to put its carrier in court because its crew is sick is going to ask fundamental questions about the vulnerability to further biological events for attacks in the future you know and the desire to create for example the navy cents less and less crew aboard ships trying to create a more Thomas vehicles out on the surface and undersea I think speak to some of those imperatives and then again back to my business journalist hot there’s an economic aspect to me one of the projects adjusted for the NATO innovation center I was looking at it such an eight on twenty forty and the sooner that I played with was that France was the last day donation but insisted on having a human fighting force that the other members in Europe were not willing to sustain or pay for that anymore in fact in on moral and ethical grounds felt the robots were better better better serve option for defending their interests you know abroad and being a deterrent it was the other country too in that scenario there was still insisting on having a human army and did a great scale I think is really fundamental questions that that sounds totally bonkers but when you start actually looking at the trends that you see today the C. port for from corona virus they’re not actually is as far off as as as you potentially think some of it as you can imagine what’s possible and what’s not always makes me think of this question of life follows art and it certainly seems that way when you see movies rather literature the come out a few years later we’re kind of living the situation  wells once in our imagination we’re now experiencing so I’m curious if whenever you’re doing your storytelling or writing do you ever have the question your mind what if all this turns out to be true at one of things I wrestle with is what I want to live in the world I’ve created and and this would turn into something I I’ve really wrestled with you know what I want to be in the position that Laura Keegan’s husband is and  you know white shoe lawyer who lost his job to an algorithm and is struggling to deal with that you know someone who felt like that they did everything right that they had all their boxes ticked in yet society does not actually have what what they felt they were owed that is incredibly impactful on everything from you know other self esteem and and how they relate to others in their immediate family but also their politics also what they feel  the day the day that you want from society in turn and so for me you know being able to envision worlds that I want to avoid which is probably more of what I’m doing I’m not a dystopian you know per se I’m somebody who’s having fairly optimistic but I said you stare into the abyss a lot I would like to think that if someone you know comes across the stories that I’ve worked on that’s helped them feel like they can take more responsibility  have agency in determining the future that’s ahead rather than combat paralytic response here like how this is just so bad like we’re we’re doomed you know that’s not that’s not the response I feel the travel system was like a responsible but also I mean it’s great to indulging on a few read Cormac McCarthy’s the road that that that’ll correct me because I really felt like you know there’s just nothing you can do in that scenario but you know scrounge along to die and  take care of your kids and I was like wow that’s a meditation and I don’t know if you read Lawrence Wright’s end of October which is out now and visions of kind of the it’s like a prequel to Cormac McCarthy’s book so I would read that with caution because of the second half yeah it’s a tough one but but it speaks to this it speaks to this point though of of trying to you know think about the worlds that we want to live in and can we describe ones you want to avoid so they don’t actually come true no price and more more time like that  it than I do you know what kind of a utopian are you joking frame of mind and it’s not again out of any kind of self indulgent but it’s either out I’d like to be cautionary  and how people take away something that makes them think they can to make a better future burning does talk about one thing that is utopian you can push a button and be DC traffic which if you could bring that that would be a true game changer I thank yeah you know that the traffic is a really fun thing and that and and burn it on it’s not fun per se but it’s a it’s a great way to connect tomorrow to today and and I I think you and you know this kind of that the challenge of I think to some extent your work too is that you’re trying to talk about technologies today how they’re going to change and the the the world in the future so driverless cars or are in development and are coming in are going to be the norm you know probably within a decade or so this is what we saw traffic right we still have accidents you know what like to be in that world where you’re not quite in control as much of of your your mobility and transportation such American you know there’s so much wrapped up in that you know the idea of the open road side  but not yet at same time you know being able to especially for people who’ve lived in the DC area to know that like the beltway still going to be a terrible place to drive even when there’s a Thomas cars that just rings true and and gosh we might be wrong on that you know perhaps it’ll be the sum of the swelling you know traffic center in the world  but I don’t I’m not betting on it in part because of algorithms right in part because of the competition that will be between various platforms and the software that drives them you know we know that you know there’s no one quite a quite a I like the idea that everybody has their own implementations and and and you know value such ratings and data that power  the the the software they’re using certainly is going to create kind of a much more heterogenous environment but yet one that moves at machine speed  and that to me is really fascinating thing because this whole you know caught conversation especially in the national security sense you know human on looper in the loop you know being in the loop is going to be really really difficult and and I think if if cognitively you know we don’t have some kind of a breakthrough or or perhaps even merge more with machines in part because we’re just gonna need kind of like with and some of the cyber domain you know you need the machine to do its thing without us getting in the way and and  you know that’s I think certainly could be the case with traffic in the future now if anything because of the complexity of of you know those problems to start to solve there may be something I think to do that and in terms of understanding the future of of conflict to yeah enter double tap on that a bit the future conflicts you mention NATO twenty forty it’s fascinating to think and in twenty years time not necessarily having standing armies but if we could ship that a bit to maybe twenty twenty five twenty twenty eight if you’re in the work that we do and defense innovation unit to try to bring that technology that is here just not evenly distributed can you speak a bit more maybe in terms of that next five or so years what you think especially exhilarated by KO at nineteen what we may be seeing in the in the national security landscape and that the US will have to react to I think in the next ten to ten years to even five years you’re gonna see  and uptick in adoption of human machine teaming capabilities particularly I think in the undersea and and naval domain because we’re trying to wrestle with the geography of the Pacific and how to deter China I think that is going to be an area where depending on on how we we prioritize this acquisition programs because they are of course competition with Kruger or or you know human oriented systems but you know you’re looking at some of the work the marine corps is doing and trying to re imagine that that fighting force that has a lot more integration with robotic and semi autonomous systems I think speaks to the kind of transformation that will become more prevalent throughout so you know small  robotic systems that are very useful for the army for example in dense urban areas they can accomplish a lot of the missions that have to do with resupply maybe casualty evacuation for example B. two areas that I would be incredibly interested in in part because those are highly dangerous missions we often use helicopters for them which are very very vulnerable  already and yet if you could come up with alternatives that did not risk human lives to just move material around like batteries and ammunition and food  that would seem to be very sensible thing you know the other aspect to is whether the the contest over hypersonic technology will be be really important or not and you know I’m I’m not totally certain that it that it will given the other capabilities that are there at a strategic level and that introducing the kind of attentional conventional long range strike that’s talked about as a priority I don’t know if that will be as attorneys we think because in that way that I think about the kind of scenarios where that’s possible I have a hard time seeing how it might be used against targets in mainland China without having them take a much more disproportionate response you know given the but I know their doctor on the open source world that doesn’t seem like it would be a very successful gambit to to to take it’s one of the issues with the  C. battled long time ago to  in Europe I’m really interested in and the use of small units that are highly integrated with not tanks and armor but data you know given the density of of population in areas like the Baltics and and cities being much more of a focus for center of gravity then then they might be in other parts of the world like in the Mideast and Central Asia and parts of the Pacific you know in in Europe I think the narrative campaign as being a not a psychological operations or unconventional warfare but actually like a larger larger kind of contest really important that’s certainly gonna be the domain of us AI machine learning a neural networks you’ll be able to create these sorts of always on access to information for example in a great power contest that is favorable to your side especially if it’s not biased especially if it’s just as it would be C. pre balance would be a really valuable tool and yet also some really fundamentals on the flip side of that is just how do you get people across the Atlantic you know we don’t pre position like we used to so are there ways to think about how we use it on a system to do that other ways to pre position autonomous systems like we once you know did battalions of of M. one tanks or will that cause the sorts of problems of trying to put in a Pershing missiles in Germany did in in  in during the Cold War you know being able to put a legion of battlebots you know in a bunker in Norway or or  or Germany you know maybe as provocative to  to the Russians as is deploying F. thirty fives you know today  no we still live in the world we live in as well so you know getting out thirty five for example an F. twenty two to talk still maybe a challenge in twenty twenty five or twenty twenty twenty eight but that would be a priority right I mean you know the inter operability question as a field of innovation that’s incredibly important and not not terribly shiny wood wood and I know there’s progress being made with an off boarding or whatever but  but being able to crack those kinds like real real important operational questions I think is is critical  to some extent to I would think also about about the threat you know the mining in the north Atlantic that would be almost certain in a conflict with Russia being able to use a ton of assistance to solve problems and and if you’re gonna go back to what you were saying earlier about you’re talking to people who are solving problems outside of the defense community certainly that’s not a priority per se but there are other applications that I think can use data in similar ways to you know find identify and deal with  you know physical real world things that might be able to to help help you know for to stop some of those kinds of threats from being as big as an adversary might might want them to be and I think that’s how I can conclude that answer which is like I would think about everything that I want to have come true everything my adversary wants to have come true in figure out how they’re gonna be working to essentially you know make my best and my worst  decided very complex kind of notion I realized that I think that fundamental disassembly can really lead you just mentioned technological solutions and tell me point actually point you towards the sort of people who have answers that may not be resident within our traditional companies or institutions in the in the defense from  you touched on about ten different DA projects in your in your response and so that’s that’s inspiring so there’s a lot of talk about jobs being replaced with a I know some of ransoms some in some places where forty percent job loss would be replaced by a I in the next ten years what are your thoughts on how we actually prepare for that over the next to me ten years not a long time so how do you prepare for that as his public this is perhaps one of the most important questions we have to wrestle with and start dealing with it literally right now in part because of the economic toll that covered his hat on the American work force you know we’re we’re looking at the ability to replace people in fields that I think believed they were immune to automation you know this is a robotics and software revolution together it’s not simply a dark factory that has no people in it but it’s going to a primary care appointment and talking to a synthetic personality even if you’re in the doctor’s office if you need to get to physically go there to be either center directed to a certain type of care not remain you’re doing it from your your home you know the the the notion that were going to see the same technological uptake during coronavirus tail off or or be reduced you know in the next couple of years I think would be would be wrong and that you know much of what were were viewing in terms of the remote work practices that are being you know established I wouldn’t say perfected but honed you’re seeing the  sentry a conversation of everything from retail which was already competing you know with with online to be lasting and permanent so that that the surveys that are out there and you know the the first ones to kind of shoot the the first shot across the bow we’re out of Oxford university but many of the major consulting companies are are tackling with this too is they try to prepare companies for this but you’re you’re questioning is apt because you’re talking about how we prepare society and and being able to understand you know how we are most vulnerable and what our world might be like if half of our workforce isn’t able to work that is something that is almost an existential kind of crisis that I don’t think our system right now is is ready for you know we’re we’re struggling as it is to you know meet the basic needs of people who want to work and can’t because of coronavirus  and that is not to me very well RT indicator that we’re going to have the political will to gonna move beyond traditional understandings of the role of work the role of an individual’s worth and  you know I don’t necessarily think we’re gonna be kind of living in the Sweden you know in America and the end of the twenty twenties but it’s not sustainable that we have this much economic and social security and and enter into a world in which you know half of the people who who want to work are not able to or maybe even more  in any of the studies themselves very I mean some some will say  you know like I was  I am not that they can’t even as few as ten percent of jobs  let’s say Oxford was at forty two and you know  forty three and then you know keep him Jeez you know in that same ballpark but even if there’s ten percent of working Americans who can’t work and want to because their field is a big one it’s a big number and and he’s our individual experiences this again is where I think fiction is really important because it’s one thing to talk about statistics and data we we we get into these really core issues that are so fundamental to what it means to be American you know how often you’re going to barbecue and someone said so what do you do that to me is a really important thing that we have to wrestle with this existential of all and its policy around everything from retraining from ensuring that you know we have a healthcare system that can be more efficient and keep people  well who can’t work even if we have these sorts of pandemics which will happen again yeah that’s the sort of nightmare scenario if you think about it you know the world burning more or fewer people work king then I want to you know are are there are in a situation where you have access to health care  you know that’s not a too far fetched a scenario to to imagine based on the world around here in twenty twenty yes so true well that’s this is been really incredible you know I’ve learned a lot today as I’m sure many of our audience did as well thank you August bridge kids today and taking the time to chat with us right to be on the show and I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with my friends yeah you I started thank you again to August and Zach for joining us today and even given us a bit of a glimpse into the future I was his work and his books really do help us understand the individual human impact of shifting to robotic and software solutions in the defense industry it’s been so much for talking to you that’s it for this installment of defense innovation from tanks to teleportation if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe and share it with friends and we’ll be back soon with more about the defense innovation unit efforts defense innovation from tenses of the partition is created in partnership between the U. 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