In this episode, you’ll hear: 

• Stott’s journey from corner office to entrepreneur 
• How improvisational skills can translate in our day-to-day lives, helping us connect to ourselves and others 
• Why Search & Convert believes you have to get to know a client before you can provide SEO services to them 
• The challenge that Black entrepreneurs face when they are looking for support but want to avoid being in service of empty, performative gestures 
• Stott and Christie’s advice for entrepreneurs

 

For the first episode of Masters & Founders, season two, Dan welcomes his guest Shannon Stott of Improv | On and Off the Stage and co-host PJ Christie of Search & Convert.

Shannon Stott is an improviser, teacher, and the founder of Improv | On and Off the Stage, an Austin-based production company that creates improv shows, classes, and content to help people connect with others — and themselves. Stott founded Improv | On and Off the Stage to help people, performers and non-performers alike, integrate improvisational skills into their lives. 

According to Stott, everyone is improvising all the time, and she realized long ago that people can use improv to become better communicators, more empathetic, and more grounded in their daily lives.

For more than 20 years, Stott has been performing and teaching improv. She got her start with a Virginia comedy troupe called ComedySportz, and soon after something clicked for her. Stott realized pretty quickly that the skills she used in improv, such as intuition, trusting others, and communicating effectively with words and body language, were all useful to non-performers.

Eventually Improv | On and Off the Stage was born, and was starting to come along, until — covid. But instead of an obstacle, Stott saw this forced pause as an opportunity to pivot from her corporate job and focus completely on her own business. 

Stott connected with Christie at Vuka Coworking, and it wasn’t long before Christie approached her about his Black Businesses Matter program, where Search & Convert provides free SEO services to Black-owned businesses in their community.

Listen to the first installment of Masters & Founders, season two, to learn more about Stott’s journey from corner office to founder, the challenges that Black entrepreneurs face, and Stott and Christie’s advice for entrepreneurs. 

If you enjoy this conversation as much as we did, be sure to share it with a friend or colleague! 

 

Hosts: Dan Dillard & PJ Christie

Guest: Shannon Stott

Find Shannon Stott on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

Read the full article in foundingAUSTIN.

Learn more about Improv | On and Off the Stage. 

Learn more about Search & Convert. 

This blog was written in partnership with founding_media. 

This Founder Spotlight series is sponsored by Search and Convert, an Austin-based marketing agency that can help your business get more leads through your site. 

 

Transcript:

How did I meet PJ? This is, I love this. W I met PJ in a coworking space and just like, Uh, just like improv and we’re going to talk about improv all the time today, but just like improv. Um, I really had to just jump in and trust that what was coming out of his mouth was true and we have to do that on stage and obviously off stage.

And it was, I PJ, it’s so fun to. To talk to you about how we met, because I quite, I remember getting down to brass tax and business and like having you give me information and thinking to myself, this is where is, this is not real. Like, who is this person? Why would they help anyone? Why would anyone help anyone ever at this point in time and having to fall back on.

Like improv training really. And just be like, you know what? We can only trust them as, as much as they’re telling us that we can trust them. So we’re going to jump into this and, but you, it’s always fun to like, hear your version because there’s like, this seems like there was this long courtship that I was unaware.

Oh, yeah. You want to talk about that? Yeah. Well, I wanted to be Shannon’s friend, as soon as I saw her across the room, you know? Well, you know, Duquesne, coworking is a, is a fun, it’s a fun situation because there’s new members that come through all the time and I’ve learned to recognize the deer in the headlights look of a new member who comes in and doesn’t know, uh, you know, where the.

As, or you know, how to book the rooms or something like that. I’ve been a member of the hookah for a really long time. And so when, when I see new members as Shannon was a new member, um, you know, my first, my first instinct is just to help make sure that she’s comfortable here. Um, and that’s just what I do for everybody.

And, uh, and so, you know, it really starts with, uh, this is a community and, you know, my interest in Buka has always been, how can I help stabilize this? And a stable community has knowledge and chairs and creates together. And, uh, and you know, Shannon certainly seemed like somebody that I could share and create with.

And, uh, so, uh, so yeah, I was eager to eager to explain the, the program, the, the whole black businesses. Program and how it provides free services. And then reiterate once again and twice. Again, these are always going to be free services.

So I had already been doing black business matter for, uh, over a year before Shannon. I had already helped, uh, six, six businesses through the program. And so it was like, Well, what’s all this help. I’m not sure about this, but to you, it was like, no big deal. This is what I do. This is part of who I am. So I get that for sure. Yeah. I have a lot of confidence that what I’m doing is the right thing for me and for the right, for the people in the community.

But what was funny is that we had done a year and we had done six businesses and it was really, really interesting on my side and the question for the company, you know, uh, do we want to continue to provide. Search engine optimization services and landing page services and the data and the analytics. Do we want to continue to provide those for the people who were in the program at first year?

Or do we want to refresh it with new memberships and that it wasn’t necessarily a given that we were going to, uh, uh, refresh it with new memberships, but, uh, As soon as we decided that we were going to do it, of course it was no problem finding another five companies to help out. Um, and so then the question was, well, how do we, uh, graduate in essence the previous years, uh, businesses and what we decided was there’s no reason to graduate the previous years businesses out of the program.

They weren’t taking a lot of our resources. We just treat you, treat it like a. You know, yes, we will continue to help them. Yes, we will start new, uh, new companies through the project. Uh, we, we did do it a little bit differently. Um, for Shannon, you know, I really wanted to immerse myself in her business and I didn’t give myself that opportunity in the first year.

So the second week before, let me jump into, before we jump into that, PJ, I want it, I want to get into her business just as the audience understands, what. So Shannon back to you. Uh what’s you said improv, I want to learn more about the business. Can you talk, talk to me about, uh, your business and, and, and your journey?

Yeah, so the business is improv on and off the stage, but I am only recently getting to the spot where I’m like getting to say the thing. Cause it used to sound. Oh, I run a thing and it’s called improv on it off the stage. And it, I guess I teach him like, that’s what it used to sound like, but now it sounds like I own a production company called improv on and off the stage.

We provide shows and. Classes and, uh, really content to help people connect with themselves and others through improv. And that’s what we do. That’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve been teaching improv for over 20 years right now. Uh, we recently pivoted and so we are a production company. We’re not teaching classes on a regular basis, but.

That’s that’s what we, that’s what we do. We like, we were doing shows online. We’re doing shows live. We are trying to show people that they’re already doing improv and now we want them to do it on purpose. And this is both people and corporations. Right. So you also help. Companies doing province. And the benefit there, I would imagine is just being able to be better at sales, being able to be better at communication with other, uh, coworkers and clients.

Is that more or less the thought process? I’m just kind of guessing here.

Yeah. A lot. So a lot of that is absolutely on the nose. Um, we also have had people come to us who have had issues, like how to, how to make sure that they are. Incorporating and listening to the people of color that they have hired the people.

The people who have disabilities, who they have hired, uh, trans gendered people who have been in their communities, just how, how do we listen to them? How do we provide them with what they need? Right. Uh, so yes, companies and yes, people. That’s awesome. I love, I love that. You’re like we are, we are here to help with the hard conversations, which shouldn’t be as hard, but the hard conversations and how to, how to transition.

To improv. I love that. Uh, want to talk to you about the journey? So, you know, you said you’ve been doing this for 20 years. What was that first? What was the spark that got you into improv?

So we as a family, my family. Uh, a global family. We, my parents were, uh, foreign service and we traveled everywhere. We lived in lots of places.

And finally, when I settled down in Richmond, Virginia, I started doing comedy sports and which is improv and improv theater. That is nationwide. And I started doing comedy sports. I started learning improv, started teaching and sports though. Right? It’s not comedy about sports. It’s comedy played as a sport.

So it’s so great. I love it to this day. Um, but I started teaching and improvising and I. Realizing that the things that I was learning, like how to trust, how to communicate, how to move through a space, how to recognize what, where I am and what it means to be where I am, what kind of character is in a coffee shop versus what kind of character is under the seat?

Right? These, these are fun things, but they applied to how to the things I was already doing when I was moving. Through time and space from country to country and continent to continent, right? The things like, how do I move through this space? Who do I, who do I speak to by looking them in the eye? Who do I not speak to by doing that?

What do I wear? How do I wear it? Um, how do I make friends? You know, all of these types of questions that we. Ask ourselves when we’re not moving around. You know, when we’re in one place, we ask these questions, but when we’re in one place, we fall into habits and patterns. And for me, when I was moving, I couldn’t fall into habits and patterns.

I had to change on the fly for each country or place that I was in and improv. Absolutely. Connected that like I was realizing, oh, I’m already doing these things. Improv teaches us to do those things so I can teach people to do those things. Out in the world, hence offstage, right. Profit on and off the stage.

So, so for many, so for many years you were practicing cause he was a passion of his, you just loved it through in your travels and everything else. And then at some point you decided that. I’m going to put on the entrepreneurial hat and make a business of this. Is

that correct? So, yeah, at some during the time that I was at comedy sports, I, when I was realizing, oh, this is a, this is a thing.

A business was happening in my head and there were, it was a stop and start. It was a slow start. And then finally, when I got to Austin, I mean, I’ve been in Austin now 10 years, a little over 10 years. And I mean, I feel like lots of people have this, this part of the story, but the pandemic. Right. And during that time, Uh, it was the time.

It was the time. It was an hour, never time. I had just gone through all the things, the corporate corporate job coroner office director in the title, all those things had happened and then it was no longer. So what do you do in that time? I chose to start this business.

Pretty courageous to start a business during the pandemic.

And now I want to go back to PJ. So this is, this is a new business VJ that you, you, you, a new business, Shannon was a new person. I’m not sure it was not a new person. So me as a person, but a new business in the pandemic, you met her. And so typically like, obviously, you know, it’s like there’s as any entrepreneur you’re getting started, you don’t have all the things that you need.

Get traffic and to get clients. So I want to learn a little bit more about whenever you see someone come in that doesn’t have doesn’t fit your, uh, I guess, normal client status. Like what do you do?

Well, you know, first I tried to meet them where they are. Um, you know, when you, when, um, Speaking to somebody in a corporate sense, they usually have a team of people and pretty quickly I have to figure out who, uh, who is filling, what role, what are they responsible for?

Um, and when I’m working with. You know, an entrepreneur, especially when he’s bootstrapping or, you know, trying to get things started with limited resources. The answer is there are, there is only one role and that is the person who is the founder. I mean, anybody, uh, I mean the, the founders deserve their own pat on the back compared to everyone else because it just takes so much to do it.

And, um, and you know, the, the company that comes to me is usually going to have somebody who. Built the website for them. And that person is on call. They, they might have, uh, a director of marketing and that person is on call. They might have a layer of, of, uh, like a C layer above everybody telling everybody what to do and what metrics they’re driving for.

Um, you know, working in that kind of a matrix is kind of, I mean, it is the language. Searching and verb, but when it comes to helping entrepreneur, you really just gotta meet them where they are. And, uh, and it’s pretty easy to find out like, uh, you know, questions like what’s your website platform. How did you choose it?

Um, you know, uh, what’s next in your design process. And just from those questions, I can really tell whether somebody has all of the roles filled that they need. And if they don’t.

It sounds like a lot of education goes into. Right. Very, very cool. I love that. You’re able to like shift from, you know, corporate level searching, divert kind of stuff to like, okay.

Entrepreneur, w w what do you need? Let me educate you on what’s missing. And let me feel fill in that gap. That’s really

cool. In race conversations, they call that code switch. Um, okay. And, um, you know, and I’ve, I’ve learned how to be pretty good at it. Uh, straddling the line between creative and entrepreneurship.

Um, that there’s a, there’s a time when it’s the get to know you conversation, right. And then there’s a time when it’s, how can I help? And, you know, you’ve got to have one conversation before the other, you got to get to know somebody before you can really serve their needs. And I consider what I do with service.

You know, I consider that I am in service to the, my friends and the people in my community. I take. That’s awesome. She handed back to you. I I’m, I’m curious, um, you know, we’re celebrating, uh, black excellence, uh, and entrepreneurism. Um, I’m, I’m curious about systemic issues in your industry. So you’ve been in business a couple of years now during the pandemic.

That, that question is so interesting. That question is anytime I hear it, it’s interesting. What kind of challenges on my face? I faced all the challenges, all that. Just whatever challenge you face as an entree, not having money, not having clients, not having. Anything, you know, those are the things, but what we’re, I think what you’re gonna have it all figured out when you first had it all figured out and then blended. So I could get on this podcast right now.

We got it. Um, yeah, I. The thing about any industry is, and I think it’s any, almost any industry at this point is if it is run by white men, that’s really who you’re going to see. So the, as far as race goes, the challenges are. How to convince someone, especially in companies that the face of what they’re doing is, is mine.

How to convince them that it’s mine. But at the same time, when the pandemic hit and the, and George Floyd was murdered and all and black lives mattered was like shooting to, uh, the forefront as far as. Being recognized suddenly. Now there was a shift for. And who I am. Right. And that is also a challenge.

I would, I would imagine it’s like both, both sides of that coin are really strange.

I I’m telling you I’m, you know, I we’re going to go all over this place here, but I. Uh, so suddenly my phone is blowing up, right? It’s February. So suddenly like people want me to work. People want me to like show up to their conferences and do what podcasts, right. Show up to places. But that, that is a challenge as, as well, right there a time.

It should, there really be a designated time where. Person of color and their voice is more predominant or more valuable then, then in March or December or June. Like, so anyway, all of that, all of that to say that, yes, uh, as far as challenges go, um, it’s, it is a mental challenge to decide. Where, where I want to put my voice where I want to put my face.

Um, I’ve asked, I’ve had to ask people to take my name off their websites, right? Not because they are doing something wrong within their company, but because they’re using my name and face as a, as a nod to them promoting. Black people or people of color or women. Right. But they’re not actually doing it.

They’re just using my face to promote these things. So those are challenges that I, as a, as a, as Shannon Dale, Scott Davis, there are challenges that I go through and I believe that probably many entrepreneurs of color go through because you’re, you are looking, you are pounding the pavement, you are looking for money.

Who are you going to be in service of who, where, how are you going to take that money? So when getting back to talking to you, PJ, you know, there is, yes, there was like this, like, is this, is it free? You know, there’s that part of it? How much, how much am I going to pay later? Some of that payment that we’re talking about, isn’t financial, it’s spiritual, it’s moral.

Like, am I, am I going to find out later that really the person that I’m working with, isn’t wanting to actually work with me. They just want to say that they are working with me. These are the things, these are challenges

I can see. I definitely hear you. And you can see that. In the work we asked the question and we were, as we were getting to know each other, and the question is, have you been able to take any of those challenges and turn them into victories?

And I wanted to ask that again to you. Cause I thought your answer was, was just great.

Yeah. We’ll see if I, if it’s the same answer now, but, but the, the nuts and bolts of it. I am here and that is a victory. I am alive. I am running a business and that is a victory. That being said, the challenges that I have had to face and the mental health that I have had to go.

As well as all of the people of color black and brown and, and, uh, that are going through to be here and to be alive and to be running their business, like, should it, it is a victory. And should it be, that is the question, right? Should, should I have had to go through all the things that I went through, like as, excuse me, someone, someone will say, well, yes, the resilience, right.

Resilience will make you stronger. But is the resilience forced upon me. I believe that it is right. So there is this, there is this joy that comes with. Understanding that I am owning a business. I am doing something that I’m passionate about and, and I am majorly privileged to be doing it. And then on the flip side of that, there is like this, you look at other people and they may be in the exact same place that I’m in, but they didn’t have to be as resilient or they didn’t have the same challenges I went through.

And some of, and some of those challenges are directly. A result of my gender and my race and that’s okay. Yeah.

Well, one of the things that you, you, when you, you know, we were talking about this before, you’re like, well, what do you mean by that question? And I asked that question to every entrepreneur and, and, and what.

When you put the entrepreneurial hat on, as PJ mentioned earlier, you’re worrying that a lot of hats is not just one and every morning you got to wake up, what do I put on for the first 10 minutes of the day? And, you know, just keep, keep doing that. So every entrepreneur that decides that I’m going to go build something, I’m going to create something out of thin air has challenges and it is not, nothing is written and there’s no rule book.

You just. Keep having encouraged and faith and keep putting one foot in front of the other. Uh, you have all of that. And in addition, w what I’m hearing you say is I have all of that. Plus I have these things that I just shouldn’t exist. And so I just think that’s, I mean, also, uh, Is courageous. It’s also something that, that shouldn’t be there.

And I’m glad that we’re having this discussion because the more people that are aware of this it’s just should be just a normal, normal thing. So I’m really happy about that. I ended up

there’s one other factor. I just want to say, to talk about the systemic stuff. That I’ve noticed. Um, and you know, Shannon is a case of one, right.

But, you know, uh, in my unique experience, I’ve got a case I’ve got cases of probably 20, uh, examples like Shannon. One thing that is true is that in the African-American community, a lot of the freelancers services that are required for, uh, uh, an entrepreneur like Shannon to get through, to success. Is going to be things like, uh, who are the designers, who are the, uh, what the website builders, who are the SEO experts, um, you know, who are these people?

And I mean, and, and I’m saying I’ve observed in the African-American community, these skills are not available. It’s almost like if I, if I, if I wanted to hire somebody who knew SEO and I said, I really want to hire an African American person for this. I would go out and speak to people and I would be able to say, Hey, I can show you how to do SEO.

Uh, I’ll train you. You’ll be junior. You know, you’ll, you’ll understand how to do it. And then you’ll have a marketable skill at the end. But at that, if that individual looks around in their family and in their friends and, and the people that went that they went to school with, and none of them have ever made a dime off of, you know, providing SEO services or web design services, they’re just not going to think it’s for them.

Right. And I do think it’s a systemic issue because these are the creative trades. And I think that, that the African-American community is unique. Positioned to be in the more creative trades and yet the infrastructure to get them to success is not there all the way across the board. And this is a bigger issue than just Shannon.

This is, this is, I think the challenge that my generation is to is to introduce this opportunity.

And another challenge that the, the, the question that I want to ask, um, Shannon is. Your role as a founder. And you, you, you said earlier that you teach, uh, improv to people and corporations and things of that nature.

And you’re helping them have the hard conversations, the harder conversations, maybe the conversations they’re just not used to. Right. So how has that work that you’ve been able to do that you’re doing for others helped you kind of address these.

You stumped me. I got stumped. Um, I think like anything else when we teach things, we learned them. Right. You know, when we’re in a space where we are teaching someone. To do anything we learn best. So best example. I, well, it’s a terrible example, but it’s, I mean, it’s a great example. It was terrible story.

Um, I was teaching a workshop and I had to explain what bobsledding. Is that right? Yes. I had to explain what bobsledding was. I recognized and I was on screen. Okay. So it was a virtual workshop and I looked across the screen and what I said was, what I said was, Hey, uh, we’re going to do this thing. We’re going to do this exercise.

It’s like, I need you to think of it like a bobsled. And I saw that there was a. Women of what I assumed was Asian descent in that, uh, in that group. And I said something like, um, does everyone know what bobsledding. That felt fine. And she said, she said, no. She said no, in my mind, I was like, good. I asked the right question.

Then I went on to explain what bobsledding was. And then I said at the end of it, something real shitty, like, like, did I use good enough English or something? Like really off the mark? Yeah. And everyone, you could see it. Like this is the great zoom is great. You could see, you could see it. And it was a big foot sandwich.

Anyway, we had to leave. We had to like get out of that group and go back to the main group or whatever. And in that thought, in that time that I had, I was like, good Lord. What am I going to do? And then we came back and because I have been doing improv for a long time, I know that at any given time, you can stop a scene, you can stop a scene and self-correct, you can stop seeing and move to another scene.

You can follow your races, whatever it is. So I used that as you know, we went back in and. We were, I could have just kept going. I had, I had the ability, I could’ve just kept going, but instead I said, Hey, I’m so glad we’re back together. I want to stop right here and apologize. I can’t tell you how sorry I am for just being.

Like, I just felt whatever I said, I’m I, I felt rude and I feel like you all, you know, felt, it felt that. So I just want to apologize now for it. And it was like the anuses released, you know what I mean? Cause they were just like, holy shit, who is this person? And so my point, yeah. And so you’re asking. Hard conversations, hard conversations really aren’t that difficult?

They’re not, they’re just there. People make it difficult because they are unwilling to put themselves in spaces where they feel embarrassed. Right. Yeah. Instead of just addressing the fact that you’re embarrassed, we just sort of move on through it and improv isn’t about. T teaching you how to have a hard conversation.

It’s about lightening yourself and being aware of other people so that you can be vulnerable so that you understand it’s okay. It’s fun to be vulnerable. It’s okay. People appreciate it. We can change this scene and that scene is, oh, I’m going to get way big, but the scene is the world, right? Like if you can figure it out, How to be vulnerable enough to say, sorry, to be empathetic, to try and understand someone else’s point of view.

These are the things that help grow and strengthen relationships, and they are the things that help change. Well, I love it. It just is. It’s such a simple solution, but it is hard as it’s either ego or something inside that it’s just, you know, tell society it’s hard. It’s really just swallowing that and say, no, I want for the greater good.

Just be real. And that’s awesome. I love that you shared that. Thank you very much. I’m going to change. The now I’m going to stop the story and change directions. Um, since we celebrating black excellence, do you have any favorite entrepreneurs who’ve inspired you or inspire you now?

Yeah, the right now, when I was talking to you all earlier and I said, um, that we had pivoted towards.

Being a production company right now, like monkey pop productions and who Ray productions are really ECRA and Jordan Peele production companies are really inspiring to me. The fact that they are truly trying to reach the black community and tell stories in ways that.

Or it’s just diff diff different. Like I, when I watched Jordan peals horror movies, like, no, that’s really what it’s like. And you look around and sometimes there are other people in the w in the theater, we do, we go to theaters anymore, but there are people around who understand what you’re going through.

And there are people around who really don’t, but. Horrified, but they don’t know what, why you don’t go apply there. And that’s also amazing. So anyway, just having, having those stories be told in creative and, uh, releasing ways is wonderful. And then on ISA Ray’s side, having the SA, having those same stories be told, and she’s really trying to.

How have entrepreneurs, right? I have people who are just starting out, have the opportunities to tell their stories. So those right now, like looking at what those two people are doing is really inspiring as far as what I can do in that direction. As far as telling stories and. Incorporating other people to tell their stories.

I love that. And, you know, found the media. We do all kinds of podcasts and stories for corporations and also the magazine. So I’d love to work with you closer on building stories. So I think that we can do some things together. That’d be awesome. I have one final question for the both of you. Um, and that question is.

Because the show is called masters and founders and the sh and the show is really about, you know, teaching entrepreneurs, how to be entrepreneurs, better entrepreneurs and through experiences, life experiences, and through the journey. So the question is really simple. What’s, what’s the advice for the entrepreneurs that are listening, whether they’re just regular, just.

So I’m going to, so just any entrepreneurs listening, what’s the advice. And then we can get more detailed if we want to. And if they are facing other challenges as we talked about, but being a black entrepreneur, what’s the advice there.

PJ. Do you have, do you have advice for entrepreneurs?

I mean, I think, I think the, my, my first advice is it’s really going to matter to somebody that’s, that’s been, that’s been something that I say. Over and over again. Um, if it’s, uh, if it’s, uh, you know, uh, a converting landing page or something you’ve got to break through and it’s got to matter to them. And if you’re, if, if someone is finding that.

Within their business or within their life that they’re not finding fulfillment, then they need to look a little bit deeper. And you know, for me, I would encourage other business owners. My advice would be to other business owners, start up your own black businesses, better program within your own company.

Because it’s meaningful work and it will change the way you see your own business. I promise, I promise anybody that follows this path. They will learn more about themselves and more about their business by, by going, going the direction that I, I would, I think that’s the best advice I can give making matter to you.

I love that. One of the other conversations that we had, Peter, you and I already on a few months ago, um, that’s something that’s really near and dear to your heart is. To make sure that that’s the first and foremost in your business. And I, that, that, uh, I certainly believe that. And hearing that from you and hearing that that’s a big passion of yours is also, um, I just wanted to add to that because it was in the same kind of vein and make it matter.

Yeah. I, if people are listening and they’re wondering, like, what do I do? I Recently, I have had to sit down and tell myself and look at my past and history and look in the mirror and say to myself, oh, I’m not crazy. And I think I, from what I understand, And from what I understand, I’m not the only person on the planet. So there are people who go through the same experiences that I’ve had.

And one of those experiences, as far as being an entrepreneur is having people that you trust and love or who you feel like you trust and love, tell you that your idea. Crazy. And it can sometimes that word isn’t used, but it’s like, it can come out like that’s too much. Or how, how do you think that’s gonna work or that I’ve never seen that before?

All those things are different ways of saying that somehow your idea, or you are off the beaten path. Uh, as, as earnestly, as I can tell you, listener, you are not. And the behind that is go forth and keep digging at what you’re, what you’re passionate about or what the thing is that people are telling you is off because usually.

It feels, you can tell you kid there’s something in you. That’s like, it keeps coming back to you. You keep turning towards this thing, and there’s a reason for that. So you may as well follow it.

That’s great advice. I really love that. I mean, obviously within the journey and this is just, you know, conversations I’ve in the past, there’s, there’s pivoting and things of that nature that have to happen throughout your journey.

However, um, I do believe. That the universe provides us each a calling. And that calling is what you’re talking about. The voice that keeps saying this needs to be done and listening to that voice is, is what I’m hearing you say is listen to the voice and keep, keep, keep going. So I love that.

Thank you very much for being part of the show.