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What you’ll hear in this episode:

• Why the Defense Innovation Unit was created
• What projects the DIU has completed and what they’re working on
• How the DIU is fast-tracking the adaptation of commercial technology in the Department of Defense

When you think about the Department of Defense, it has to be just like the movies, right? Well, in reality, the DoD is stuck using technology that’s decades behind. Co-host Zach Walker explains, 

“I will never forget my first day at the NSA, standing outside, I was so excited. I was outside of that big, black, glass building and couldn’t imagine what it would be like on the inside,” he says, “So you go inside and it’s like 1984, but not the George Orwell book, it’s literally 1984. Like carpet from the 80s, cubicles that probably haven’t seen much outside of 1980s technology.”

This is the exact problem the Defense Innovation Unit aims to fix by accelerating the adoption of commercial technology in the DoD, and it’s working already! Rachel Kolesnikov-Lindsey is an active-duty U.S. Air Force Major working for the DIU, specializing in material science and engineering. In this episode, she shares her experience leading a project to upgrade an aging phased-array radar. 

“This phased-array radar looks up and does object detection through space and sees what’s up there, is able to catalog it so we understand everything that is in orbit and it was built in the 70s,” Kolesnikov-Lindsey explains. “It has received very minimal upgrades since then and I kid you not, I went and saw this radar in person and I have seen newer computer parts in museums than what this radar is currently operating on. It is impressive, and not in the good way.

However, through the DIU her team was able to release a problem statement and award contracts within 90 days. Then, they were done prototyping within 18 months and now, the radar is outfitted with technology that’s “actually from this decade.”

Listen to the second episode of From Tanks to Teleportation, to hear more about the approachable solutions the DIU offers to the problems the DoD faces. If you like what you hear, leave us a review and share the show with a friend! And, if you haven’t already be sure to listen to the first episode of From Tanks to Teleportation featuring the futuristic warfare novelist August Cole. 

From Tanks to Teleportation is a founding_media podcast created in partnership with the Department of Defense and the Defense Innovation Unit.

Hosts: Dan Dillard, founding_media

Zach Walker, Defense Innovation Unit

Guest: Rachel Kolesnikov-Lindsey, Defense Innovation Unit

So you go inside and it’s like 1984, but not the George Orwell book, it’s literally 1984.

Transcript:

This is a founding media podcast. welcome to this innovation from tanks to teleportation I’m your host Dan Dillard in this series we explore the intersection of technology business and national security the defense innovation unit part of the US department of defense and key partners in this effort to grow the nation’s innovation banks in this episode we pull back the curtain and learn more about the importance of technology cynically commercial technology to our nation’s security we’re joined by Zach Walker the D. I. U. Texas lead and Rachel Calista Coughlin C. the program manager and director of organizational development for the I. U. learn more about why liberty commercial technology is important for the department of defense and help you are you courting with private companies to acquire the newest technology your exact and Rachel to explain more thank you Rachel thank you for being on the show I’m really excited to kick off this new podcast defense innovation from tanks to teleportation   second I’ve been chatting about this for the last few weeks now and just run it faster to take a peek into the health department of defense works in more poorly held mainstreet gets to work with the DOT   both on innovation technology and speed but before we get there I do want to talk a little bit about your background so Zach and Rachel Lister by I’ll be discussing a little bit about your background and how you both on the ball with a D. I. U. sech let’s start with you right thanks Dan for hosting I’m sorry broker I am a major in the airforce reserves currently full time with T. R. U.   that’s been India you sense the end of twenty sixteen and for me this is Ben the end of a really remarkable journey in the U. S. government   I enlisted in the Texas Army National Guard after nine eleven when I was eighteen I’m gonna have an opportunity to work in the army and the airforce I did some time at the Pentagon I. NSA CIA Iraq Afghanistan I’ve just been very very fortunate in my time in the last eighteen years to see a big part of the US government and the department of sense and how we operate N. S. seen many many places where technology has not worked as well as a publisher so when I had an opportunity to come to the defense innovation unit I knew without a doubt I had to jump on it and it was for me an opportunity to try to fix some of the things I’d seen over my career and it’s been a tremendously rewarding experience so far pretty cool thank you ritual hi Dan thank you so much for having us today I really appreciate it my name is Rachel Calista Coughlin C. I am active duty U. S. Air Force I’m currently a major and I have been in the defense innovation unit since October of twenty seventeen   I actually had to Air Force parents which is a lot of what inspired me to DO ROTC while I was in university at MIT I did material science engineering for my undergrad and then my master’s before going into active duty and it was a very different career path then the majority of my friends from college that all went into the tech sector or to these start ups or even founding their own startups directly out of college which was so different than where I went which was the Air Force research labs to do basic level research for the government I after that job I was stationed in Madrid Spain which was fantastic and then I went to Los Angeles airforce base where I had the good fortune to work in rocket launch and sending up atlas five rockets for three years which to me touches on one of my favorite parts about the air force that they continue to give me these jobs that I feel like I am dramatically under qualified for but then they give me the right resources and tools to be able to learn the skills that I need to really excel in the job that I’m in and so as my time was coming to a close at Los Angeles Air Force base I learned about the defense innovation unit up outside San Francisco and was immediately drawn to the mission that it was tearing the department of defense with these small companies the start ups and these technology firms that the department of defense had never done business with before and so having so many friends that had been in that industry I was so drawn to being there even if it was on the other side of it and it has been so interesting to see things from the government customer side of you and be able to work with very similar technologies that’s so cool I love hearing the backgrounds of different gas in the past they’ve taken out these things completely fascinating I do want to jump into the department of defense   just just for the audience purposes to understand a bit more I I imagine that when people hear those words it means different things to different people like in such a huge organization my imaginary ation always goes to Hollywood and the picture of the pot Pentagon all this Hollywood program that we’ve had but I know it’s much more than that since you both have worked with the department of defense can you give us Burke but is it your view point on what the odious so the department defense is so much larger than I realized when I first joined the airforce that it encompasses everything that the secretary of defense overseas so it falls under the president to the secretary of defense and it is all functions of the government that are related either to national security or to the military services so it’s the Air Force the army the navy the marine corps and then also all of our National Security Agency is as well that all fall under a very large department of defense that does so much more than just hi the things that you tend to read about in the news or the or the soldiers that you picture when you think about that a Terry I so it’s been very interesting to be a part of it really cool Zach we will be with us yes just a second what Rachel said it is completely astonishing the size of the department of defense and just the very things that it does so we think about humanitarian response even when it comes to the current situation now with this coronavirus DOT is playing a huge part in providing resources and guidance to support civil authorities in that response at the same time of course you also have organizations like the NSA that’s doing crazy intelligence and cyber warfare kinds things you’ve also got organizations like the defense innovation unit that’s working with commercial technology which may not all be related to any of that or it may it’s astonishing what the practice of of what did you need us to look at everything well it’s just really incredible just kinda opens my mind from that picture of the Pentagon to like really what what it entails and again that’s just to view points but as with any look large organization typically the larger organization cats sometimes it impedes growth through innovation   if see that all the time with with companies and so that’s what we just talk about the reason for defense innovation unit check sure so the the main issue is that it’s extremely difficult for the department distance to get the technology that we need for national security I will never forget my first day at the NSA standing outside I was so excited it was outside of that big class black building it it we can imagine what it would be like on the inside had to be just stuff from the movies right I’d seen in movies any of the state James Bond movies right had to be just like that right so you go inside and it’s like nineteen eighty four but not the George Orwell books it’s it’s literally nineteen eighty four like carpet from the eighties cubicles that probably haven’t seen much outside of nineteen eighties technology it’s it’s really surprising that for department defense that has such a massive budget that has such critical missions like I mentioned from virus response all the weights of course fighting winning the nation’s wars it’s amazing how hard it is for the dignity to get technology and get it it we’re not talking tanks necessarily we’re talking teleportation course if that’s out there I think the simple as email and and this this recent crisis really hit home for a lot of people how hard it is to use technology that is custom made again the duty is known as what’s called a monopsony where you have a single buyer and in no situation do you get a good deal if you have a single buyer from something and so the defense innovation unit and other organizations like it we’re going to try to to cross that gap to to bring in commercial technology that is better than what the DOT has ever not talking a little bit better we’re talking like orders of magnitude better for much much better prices much better terms and really just bring us up to a level that probably all of our listeners would expect duty is playing on but in reality for many many reasons that we can get into later we we just are ritual about you I couldn’t agree more with one sacks said it it really is true that the government used to have everything procured for them personally and they used to be the only buyers of a lot of technology and now we just are realizing that the do you do you does not need to build bespoke technology for each and everyone of our needs will always have a need for things where we are the monopsony in we are the only customer things like aircraft carriers certain types of helicopters things like that but in a lot of technology areas there are commercial companies out there that are building technology that could absolutely for Phil DOT needs in exactly the form factor that it’s already in or something very close to it and that’s for the defense innovation unit comes in to be able to really do that caring of recognizing where commercial technology is available that can facility or do you need for an upgrade or for a new technology altogether I had never thought of it that way but it puts into perspective for me   since it is works that way obviously it’s in all our best interest and to find solutions for national security   quickly in this ever evolving world intent Hammack so that brings me to the next question what does D. I. you look like like location wise who works there except for sure so the defense innovation unit was stirred up I just over four years ago going on five years actually and we have four different locations Silicon Valley where I’m located Austin Texas where Zack is Boston and also the Pentagon office we focus on five different portfolio areas which are artificial intelligence autonomy cyber human systems and space the only one there that may not be directly clear is human systems and that’s everything that makes the experience better for the warfighter whether that is medical technology   smaller battery packs for them to be able to transfer things more easily and anything else under the sun you could think of within those five different portfolio areas we also have teams that are engaged directly on the defense side to be able to scout across all services all military services and all agencies to really understand what those needs are and then a commercial engagement team that looks at what commercial technology is available across each of the spectrum and not only are they involved with companies they’re also involved directly with venture capital firms to understand where they’re investing currently where they see the trends going and understand the market analysis that’s already taking place on the private side of the house Zach so the real magic about D. A. you is when you walk into an office it does not look at all like a military organization people are not in uniform were in locations that people want to be so of course Rachel’s office is in the heart of Silicon Valley my office works in downtown Austin in starting salary   Boston isn’t Charles park which is right by MIT and just really that part of innovation and and having lived in these organizations it it’s like a commercial organization that works for the department to sense and I think that’s something that people don’t necessarily realize how important it is for the department distance to have an approachable organization right yeah you that we know is mandated to be that liaison with industry so if you are an investor if your start up even if you just want to help national security need don’t entirely know exactly what that looks like going to devalue office or emailing us or going to a very simple easy to navigate website at D. A. dot mil you can find out how to get involved with us and contributor ways that look a lot more like what you’ve done in the private sector or in academia and much less like what you may think of going back to your earlier comments about the pending on the movies what one word that I caught you said there’s approachable and I think that’s a lot of times when everyone thinks about the department offense this the way Hollywood has portrayed it it’s like well this is an initial forcing you don’t deal with it and I would imagine that a lot of start ups and other businesses don’t think about that because they just feel like it might be not approachable but here is that the I. U. that is approachable and comma helps be that liaison so so really really like that what are some of the impressive US solutions and capabilities maybe that you’ve witnessed while you’ve been there through the are you it’s been really neat to see just a variety of solutions that yeah he’s worked on different kinds of companies as well the project I was involved in was a cyber security project we called the Voltron and there was this idea that there had been a really remarkable demonstration of the certain kind of cyber technology and there wasn’t a clear way to get that into the DOT and in fact it’s it’s a story that we hear time and time again the company that demonstrate this technology was approached by what we say several adversaries to the United States and essentially giving a blank check and the U. S. department defense was nowhere to be found right because that’s not how it works right it’s just because someone has a great piece of technology Margaret commercial product it doesn’t mean that we can use it in the DOT which goes back to why yeah he was established   so the server project was really remarkable in the sense that we were able to go from our initial competition to awarding and multi million dollar contract in just about a month and for anyone that’s ever worked with government contracting requisitions that that scene that probably sounds illegal or impossible and even for people that I’ve worked in big companies they might my wife works for his tech company they don’t necessarily move that much faster to be able to move in a month is something that’s really special so the cyber project   we’ve done some really interesting things as well an artificial intelligence which again is a five course it’s very easy to be a buzzword   but there are very legitimate uses of artificial intelligence especially when it comes to things like the maintenance right moving away from time based maintenance change this filter every thousand miles even though it may be good for every five thousand miles but the book says that wasn’t right all the way to saying what can we use technology to figure out when we should replace parts different from when a book may say we we need to we’re talking billions of dollars that we think could be saved by moving away from time based to condition based maintenance   sweet projects there of course Rachel can speak to some of the amazing stuff we’re doing in commercial space   but for a small organization idea you to do everything from cutting edge cybersecurity to changing how the G. D. dispense all the way to commercial spaces is really remarkable I agree more with exact it’s so impressive to me the breath of projects that we take on and he’s right that my focus has been primarily space projects and one that I have particularly enjoyed is an upgrade to an aging phased array radar this phased array radar on looks happened as object detection through space and sees what’s up there is able to catalog it so we understand everything that is in orbit and it was built in the seventies it has received very minimal upgrades since then and I kid you not I went and saw this radar in person I have seen newer computer parts in museums this one this radar is currently operating on   it is impressive and not in the good way okay and so in a very similar time line to what’s actors cast they did your D. partner brought the problem to our attention and we surveyed the market and understood that there really were great commercial options available for them to be able to upgrade the system and we released a problem statement and we were able to award contracts within sixty to ninety days why and then all of that prototyping work was complete within eighteen months which means that just in the span of my my time at T. R. U. I have both been able to start and end a project that will now transition to fully upgrade this read our system to be here state of the art with what currently exists we’re we’re upgrading it with two technology from this decade and I was struck by another story that I saw recently about   the Cobell software that is still the under writing software for all the unemployment websites last the nations and that’s why they have all been crashing because this software was never designed to be able to manage the magnitude and it’s so difficult to upgrade because cold much like the code that was used to write the software for the the radar system that I worked with when extinct around the time that I learned to read chapter books in the early nineties and so with that of course there are very few people around that still know how to get to code and better yet to fix code written in that language and that’s why it’s so important that we modernize the system so they can continue to serve us well so it sounds like what you’ve been saying is you’re more like a matchmaker D. I used more like a matchmaker between the DOT and companies that are out there are technologies that are out there is it equally as important for as large as the department of defense is to know about the D. I. U. as it is perhaps companies that are out there Zach absolutely and I would say that’s really a big focus of ours so for us we solve problems more so than work with solutions right and it’s a subtle nuance but it’s critically important we really want to make sure that we’re solving the right problem right I I I have this kind of a joke but it’s it’s happened so it’s not much of a joke of generals that say that they need artificial intelligence right to which the responses okay well what is the problem that you’re trying to solve if you apply artificial intelligence to something that isn’t really a problem you’re not going to solve a problem and I know it it it sounds kind of silly when I explain it but we think about that in a lot of different ways just having commercial technology is only part of the problem you actually have to have a way of yes of a problem to solve and you have to have a responsible structured approach to solve that problem and that’s where the issue comes in and that’s where working with department defense partners is so important to make sure that we do understand the problem that can be solved in many ways providing translation services because as good as racial saying if people are used to working with the right are built in the seventies probably haven’t been exposed to like DevOps pipelines right work or anything that has been around the last ten or twenty years and that’s what’s important for DO you have folks like myself that come from the department we have many people that come directly from industry that understand the terminology they understand how it all comes together so then we work with TV partners we help them understand yes you have a problem that can be solved it is something that can transition into what is called programs of record basically think about that as we don’t want to just do a credit side as Rachel saying we don’t want to just show that this writer can do something really cool we want to make sure that in ten years it’s still doing that right and that’s also a very difficult challenge in the department the sense so it’s not a problem we make sure transitions and of course when industry comes and we turn to industry and say Hey these are problems if you can solve it let us know and it’s about sixty to ninety days you can have a contract which is really really speedy N. department this insight says that talked a lot about the defense side it’s also so important for that match making to be done on the commercial side as well because a lot of these companies have never worked with the department of defense defense department before it their contract with TI you and so making sure that we have terms and conditions of our contracts that are very friendly to these small companies that will allow them to maintain as many of their intellectual property rights as possible while still guaranteeing a good product to the government making these kind of contracts separable just in case the company pivots and decides to go a different direction and it no longer makes sense to work with us or vice versa that either a buzz can say Hey thank you so much this has been great but this is the right place for us to walk away   and having them understand that at the department of defense doesn’t always mean five hundred page contracts an entire teams of lawyers the need to review everything or be able to do all of the reporting that’s required in order for you to comply with the contract these simple contract mechanisms that we use make it a lot more approachable for small companies so I was always really impressed by how are corporations are able to make those kind of ships and in turn benefit the nation as a whole you bring up a really good point about that because it is astonishing what companies have done in the past to retool their production lines to make military parts I think I read something about how we can make like seven plane today and will work to which is a staggering what’s really important to know though is we’re not asking companies to become defense contractors yeah I think that’s something that’s really important distinction we want companies to still be commercial companies we just want to accelerate what they’re doing by having the department defense as a customer so you’ll tell us what you’re selling any fortune one hundred maybe make some changes right now we do need some slight modifications typically but we are not looking to turn into a defense contractor and I think that’s a really important station certainly we need defense contractors they are absolutely critical to what we do as Richard mentioned earlier if you need an F. thirty five R. tanker aircraft carrier right we need the traditional defense industrial base for that but that’s not to say that it’s mutually exclusive and bringing in what we call non traditional against companies right companies are making things to solve problems today if you’re solving a problem for fortune five hundred you can probably solve that problem for the duty the other real benefit to the government of being a customer as opposed to the only customer for a lot of these companies is the fact that the company has to keep pace with commercial and accelerate their own technology to continue to advance it so that the entire market still wants to buy the technology and the DOT benefits from those upgrades that they’ll be doing to to cater to their entire commercial based not just us and we can be designed partners too with the company and I think that’s really important as well all of the companies I worked with was really early stage so we will call it C. states in the in the terminology because they work with us it meant that we could get their technology into the hands of people at cyber command in the airforce and the army and you’re actually using it every day and providing amazing feedback types the highest ranking civilian at a U. S. cyber command said that the technology that this company had was one of the most important things our nation is doing the first seed stage company to have that kind of traction in the D. O. D. to have that kind of design partner who can then tell them we had do this do that we don’t like this we don’t like that when they were racing what was called a series a round right I mean date the people that I spoke with on those calls could not comprehend that a seed stage company had that kind of traction already in the DOD so what I did for the company was that they could negotiate the kind of terms that they wanted because they had already unlocked access to such a huge market that’s almost impossible to break into if it weren’t for organizations like the ID so we talk about some of the challenges of Rachel mentioned the challenge of this telescope the looks it was it’s also selling selling the looks at old technology that we’re using what are some of the other challenges that you know what to think about we’re facing now there are so many out there it is impossible to put a finger on all of them but the deer do you really does own a lot of systems that were state of the art when they were built and are in very much so in need of an upgrade now however I think the real challenge is making sure that as Zach alluded to that this commercial technology is able to proliferate across the department of defense and have them really understand the mindset that we don’t need to create everything ourselves and then a lot of the technology that we need can come directly from the commercial base one odd aspect of being in the military is almost everybody that is in the military have has never worked on the private sector and that also means that we’ve never dealt with any technology outside of the military technology to really understand just how quickly and capable the commercial markets are on a lot of friends and that’s a lot of what year you does is helping them understand exactly the example that sack gave that there is so much that the small companies are capable of even from the earliest face as I was saying to double click on that the speed is something that the DOD really is slow is starting to get a hold of but it’s so critical for us to be successful moving forward your writing software and you’re using other processes you’re continuously improving continuously deploying code in the DOD I’m going back to earlier time and if you have a cold ball system sitting on an island somewhere right you’re probably not using agile practices to to improve it and even if we get the best technology that the commercial sector has to provide it doesn’t mean that we’re going to be able to integrate it and we’re going to be able to use it and update it the national security strategy talks about this the national defense strategy talks about this in that it doesn’t necessarily matter if you get new technology the challenges in integrating and adapting it to how you operate yeah I think that’s a really important piece that is missing in a lot of these discussions is   what we need the best cloud technology already the best acknowledging me the best commercial space tech and that’s important but I would offered the majority the challenge is doing just what Rachel did her project how do you actually get it integrated get it delivered yeah that’s where you’re getting some kind of a day cycle that makes sense with industry so that the department defense can continuously moving Ford and continuously improving it’s very very hard for us in fact our system was really purpose built to not do that and so that’s why you need organizations like the defense innovation unit because we have the mandate to try and do this and that her actions okay a question for you both what’s the one piece of advice you would offer both leadership at the DOT that wants to work works for working with private sector firms and then also take the same question applies to private sector the wants to work with the anti and let’s see for me I would offer that leadership has to understand that they need to move at the speed of commercial if they really want to engage these private sector solutions that these companies need contracts and revenue this quarter as opposed to sometime next fiscal year end beginning that work not being afraid to prototype don’t train eat the entire elephant once take a small portion of the problem and do incremental solutions along the way to make sure that the problem really   that the solution really does fit the needs of the problem incrementally and particularly if you’re able to deliver that incremental solution and tested out piece by piece you are much more likely to have a fully capable system when it’s all done and not just that have small upgrades along the way that benefit at each step of the process my advice to DOD leadership after having done this for about four years is that this innovation thing it’s not a fad it’s not going away and even if the organizations were to go away they need to bring in commercial technology to make the department the sense of better force is is not going anywhere and so trying to institutionalize what we’re doing right and doing something that’s been done differently looking at the numbers look at the metrics seeing what works and what doesn’t work and then putting it into D. O. D. code or policy or whatever you wanna call it that has to be done again this this need is not going to go away and even if all of these different innovation organizations were to go away tomorrow and I think for companies what I would say is going back to the start of the conversation it is almost incomprehensible just how much stuff the DVD does right from the get virus response to fighting wars to sending stuff up in space the DOT does a little bit of everything and to that end there are innumerable ways to work with the deity and if you’re interested in working with the department of sense just do the research to understand what may work the best for your company the best for your your breasts task and also the best for you as someone who wants to help national security right the duty is a massive organization but we’re composed of many many different components that each have a little bit different way of doing business I would I would challenge anyone to find oh wait that doesn’t fit with their way of doing business either as a company or as an individual there’s something for everyone in the department distance thank you both I learnt so much today and I know that artist as well so what to do thank you both for taking the time to chat with us today that this is just really informative and I look forward to our next episode thank you so much to him this is been great thanks again Zach and Rachel for helping us get a better understanding of the exciting work to D. I used it really does affect us all that’s it for this installment of defense innovation from tanks to teleportation if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe and share it with friends and we’ll be back soon with more about the defense innovation unit efforts defense innovation from tanks to teleportation is created in partnership between the US department of defense and found in media to learn more about the defense innovation unit please visit the links in assurance thank you for listening